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Thread: Mens FS

  1. #91
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I've seen plenty of nitpicking of the Quadless Weir; the unstable jumps of Buttle and I could add that there is a lot of flack toward Sandhu, Weiss, and Goebel but none of them were at Euros.

    Lambiel and Joubert have gotten plenty of flack throughout the year; the former because he has been having a problem with the 3A, and Joubert's overall skating has not been up to par.

    Nitpicking Evgeni is because he is considered 'unbeatable' and that goes with the territory. It's not all that serious. Everyone will say, he will win the Olys.

    Joe

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    No one person is best at absolutely everything he does. For example, Weir cannot do the quad, Buttle makes mistakes on jumps all the time, Lambiel cannot land the triple axel consistently. I don't see anyone picking on their weaknesses. If I were an outsider reading these posts, I would think Plushenko does not even deserve to be in the top 10. Sure, he is not the best spinner but he is continuously improving and he gets it done when it counts.
    Yeah, that's how I pretty much feel too. Sometimes the things you read makes you wonder if he should even be top 10, like you said. Things are far worse on other forums though and one person started "Why I hate Plushenko" on another forum and it was bashing. Fortunately it was closed by the moderators. It's depressing to read the crap and I cannot phantom why anyone wouldn't consider him worthy after everything he's done for the sport, and still is doing, even Yags expressed his high praise for Plush.

    One must also remember figure skating is first and foremost a sport and not to get it confused with some art exhibition. Without athleticism the sport will regress. COP doesn't favour technical elements and risk taking much anymore. Why risk doing a 3 Axel when one can do other triples instead? Why risk doing a quad when one get more points doing triples? Soon the 3 axel will be gone. Soon everyone will be doing 2 axels, or doubles in general. The spins already look pretty much the same, bah! Every program is starting to look the same because doing innovative/original elements (such as inventing a certain move for example) will not be rewarded by the judges unless it's in the rule book. If it's not in the ISU rule book it cannot exist. The creators of COP even said it was created to favour the program components over technical elements. Don't get me wrong, I like to see wonderfully artsy programs and thinks that's great, but I also want to see the sport survive and it's less likely to survive if it turns into some sort of exhibition rather than sport, imho. We already have pro skating. Figure skating is first and foremost a sport after all!

    Stepping off the soap box.
    Last edited by Vitacus; 01-28-2006 at 03:47 AM.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitacus
    Yeah, that's how I pretty much feel too. Sometimes the things you read makes you wonder if he should even be top 10, like you said. Things are far worse on other forums though and one person started "Why I hate Plushenko" on another forum and it was bashing. Fortunately it was closed by the moderators. It's depressing to read the crap and I cannot phantom why anyone wouldn't consider him worthy after everything he's done for the sport, and still is doing, even Yags expressed his high praise for Plush.

    One must also remember figure skating is first and foremost a sport and not to get it confused with some art exhibition. Without athleticism the sport will regress. COP doesn't favour technical elements and risk taking much anymore. Why risk doing a 3 Axel when one can do other triples instead? Why risk doing a quad when one get more points doing triples? Soon the 3 axel will be gone. Soon everyone will be doing 2 axels, or doubles in general. The spins already look pretty much the same, bah! Every program is starting to look the same because doing innovative/original elements (such as inventing a certain move for example) will not be rewarded by the judges unless it's in the rule book. If it's not in the ISU rule book it cannot exist. The creators of COP even said it was created to favour the program components over technical elements. Don't get me wrong, I like to see wonderfully artsy programs and thinks that's great, but I also want to see the sport survive and it's less likely to survive if it turns into some sort of exhibition rather than sport, imho. We already have pro skating. Figure skating is first and foremost a sport after all!

    Stepping off the soap box.
    ITA on both counts. That's how I have felt about the jumps not being rewarded enough under the COP. A skater like Tim Goebel started doing a safer 3-3 combination instead of a quad combination (except at the recent US nationals). When the points are added, the quad does not give much advantage to a skater, but a lot more risk. Skaters can botch jumps and still it counts as a jump with a negative GOE. I am also afraid that the sports side of FS is going to regress under the COP. When Yagudin and Plushenko were pushing each other in 2002, the sport became more exciting. People were wondering if anyone would complete a quad axel. Now they may just do a 3Z-2t instead of a 3A if they cannot land the 3A consistently.

    The ISU needs to take a look at the points quickly and give more points for more difficult jumps, deduct more for mistakes (not just a -1 to -3 GOE), and reward difficulty in jumps. Under the 6.0 system a skater either landed a jump or he/she did not. They did not get away with two foot landings, step outs, hand down, etc. that easily.

    That said, I do agree with others that high quality spins should be rewarded, as against simply going by the levels.

    Vash

  4. #94
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    Am I the only person here who thinks that Lambiel is actually quite sloppy in his skating? He doesn't stretch, his posture is lacking and only one of his spins is up to his actual spinning ability.

    And I'm so disappointed in his programs this year, specially the LP. He used to be so very lyrical and musical. I don't think these programs really bring out that quality at all. When I first saw him live I was astounded at his abilities, and now he's lost me. What I loved about him, is not there anymore. :(

    Also, for all the criticism that Plushenko receives about standing around and flailing his arms, Lambiel at one point is standing up without skating for at least 10 seconds, and flails his arms IMO more than Plushenko! Why on earth has he done this?

  5. #95
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    As for the sloppiness, stretch and posture, no, you're not alone, Jimena. Also, just like you, I noticed the standing still while slowly flailing arms about for 15 seconds (I counted) in the free program. At least he isn't "slow as a snail", like Buttle.
    Last edited by Vitacus; 01-28-2006 at 04:59 PM.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimena
    Am I the only person here who thinks that Lambiel is actually quite sloppy in his skating? He doesn't stretch, his posture is lacking and only one of his spins is up to his actual spinning ability.

    And I'm so disappointed in his programs this year, specially the LP. He used to be so very lyrical and musical. I don't think these programs really bring out that quality at all. When I first saw him live I was astounded at his abilities, and now he's lost me. What I loved about him, is not there anymore. :(

    Also, for all the criticism that Plushenko receives about standing around and flailing his arms, Lambiel at one point is standing up without skating for at least 10 seconds, and flails his arms IMO more than Plushenko! Why on earth has he done this?
    I wouldn't quite call it sloppiness, but he is not as polished as Plushenko yet. Afterall he is only 20 years old and he has room to develop. I do agree with you about his posture. His arm movements did appear to be a bit excessive to me, like without a purpose at times, in his LP.

    BTW, I find Plushenko's arm movements purposeful, and not just 'flailing of the arms' which he did when he was younger (e.g. in 2001).

    Vash

  7. #97
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Vash - I believe there is a human element here albeit subliminally. A quad for the men and 3x3s for the ladies impresses the judges that the skaters have been taking the sport seriously. This in turn makes their GOEs on other elements go up. Just a thought on the psychology of the sport.

    Joe

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Vash - I believe there is a human element here albeit subliminally. A quad for the men and 3x3s for the ladies impresses the judges that the skaters have been taking the sport seriously. This in turn makes their GOEs on other elements go up. Just a thought on the psychology of the sport.

    Joe
    You may have a point there Joe. In 2002 Sarah went for two 3-3 combinations. Even though her jumps were underrotated, the judges were impressed that she went for more difficult combinations, and Irina did not. I think the COP could reduce the influence of this, though not completely eliminate it. The quad theory does not seem to help Cheng Jiang Li though.

    Vash

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    No one person is best at absolutely everything he does. For example, Weir cannot do the quad, Buttle makes mistakes on jumps all the time, Lambiel cannot land the triple axel consistently. I don't see anyone picking on their weaknesses. If I were an outsider reading these posts, I would think Plushenko does not even deserve to be in the top 10. Sure, he is not the best spinner but he is continuously improving and he gets it done when it counts.

    Vash
    What on earth does this have to do with the very poor scoring of spins, and the inflated scores people like Plushenko get for their spins? Nobody said he does not deserve to be in the top 10, some of us are mystifyed how his spin scores are so high, and how he could ever have more points for spins than somebody like Lambiel however. He does not need them to win, and the ISU simply makes themselves look less credable than they already do to people.

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