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Thread: Mens FS

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    Which medals did they BUY in the past? Anissina-Peizerat was undoubtedly the best ice dance team in that field. The Dushenays finished second at the 92 Olympics. An argument could be made that Usova-Zhulin were better, but the Dushenays had Chris Dean choreography. I don't belive the silver was 'bought' for the Dushenays. Some help from the crowd?- yes. Joubert earned all of his medals. So did Gusmeroli when she won the world bronze (1999 or 2000?). Candeloro deserved both his Olympic bronze medals because the favorites did not get it done and he did when it counted. Surya Bonali earned all her medals, including the 5 European titles.

    Vash
    Joubert has deserved all of his medals. ROTFL!!! He is one of the most overscored skaters I have ever seen and was again at Europeans. His PCS scores were so ridiculously high, they made my side hurt from laughing so hard.

    As for most of the others you pointed out I agree. However denying French politics has always been a big influence in the sport would be silly when there has even been documentaries that have people interviewed speaking of the orders they have been given by French skating officials to do this or that. Who knows how many of those skaters may have benefitted from that.

    Gusmeroli won her World bronze in 97 BTW. Also many skaters have had Christopher Dean choreographed programs and not been close to medaling, no choreographer, no matter how brilliant, is an automatic meal ticket for skaters.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    Joubert has deserved all of his medals. ROTFL!!! He is one of the most overscored skaters I have ever seen and was again at Europeans. His PCS scores were so ridiculously high, they made my side hurt from laughing so hard.

    As for most of the others you pointed out I agree. However denying French politics has always been a big influence in the sport would be silly when there has even been documentaries that have people interviewed speaking of the orders they have been given by French skating officials to do this or that. Who knows how many of those skaters may have benefitted from that.

    Gusmeroli won her World bronze in 97 BTW. Also many skaters have had Christopher Dean choreographed programs and not been close to medaling, no choreographer, no matter how brilliant, is an automatic meal ticket for skaters.
    I did not say that Dean's choreography was an automatic meal ticket for the skaters; you are putting words in my mouth and not referring to the specific case. The Dushenays had evolved upto a certain level. I never cared for their skating but i have liked some of their performances (competition and exhibitions). Isabelle was married to Dean at that time. That influence has to count, to some extent, at least in the subconscious minds of the judges. In any case they deserved 2nd or 3rd place and they got 2nd.

    Under the 6.0 system Joubert's medals were well deserved. Under the COP he has not had much success. That shows something. May be he has improved.

    Vash
    Last edited by Vash01; 01-21-2006 at 07:27 PM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    Under the 6.0 system Joubert's medals were well deserved. Under the COP he has not had much success. That shows something. May be he has improved.

    Vash
    His presentation scores were grossly inflated under the old system as well. Under the new COP he has not had success not because of judges, but because of himself, particularly last year. He did not have a single decent competition last year, except Europeans where he was a close 2nd to Plushenko. The judges gave him ridiculously inflated PCS scores even last year but he could not capatilize on them most of the time.

    This year until Europeans his scores were much more in line with reality until Europeans.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    I did not say that Dean's choreography was an automatic meal ticket for the skaters; you are putting words in my mouth and not referring to the specific case. The Dushenays had evolved upto a certain level. I never cared for their skating but i have liked some of their performances (competition and exhibitions). Isabelle was married to Dean at that time. That influence has to count, to some extent, at least in the subconscious minds of the judges. In any case they deserved 2nd or 3rd place and they got 2nd.
    The Duchensays were a team that 90% of fans seemed to be head and heals over and thought they deserved to win every event instead of Klimova/
    Ponamarenko; while many hardcore skating fans have said they were one of the most overrated teams ever, so while I have my own opinions on them I try not to get into a discussion to deep on them. They clearly inspire two extremes of views. All I will say is they were certainly extremely unique and original, some of their actual dance technique was quite flawed but they were good at hiding it.
    That and I cant stand the commentary he used to do for French-Canadian TV.

  5. #20
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    Call me optimistic (or silly)....

    I guess I'm one who WANTS to believe that more medals are earned than "bought." I try really hard to NOT cry "wuz robbed" or "wuz held up" until I've seen it. And I have no idea who has seen what here. There are lots of vids available already, even though none of this comp (to my knowledge) has been aired in the US.

    I would have a lot more respect for the "wuz robbed" and/or "wuz gifted" if there were some reference to at least seeing the performance in question. Skaters do improve with training and time, and skaters also have "melt downs" and/or "stellar performances" when you (or certainly I) least expect them.

    DG

  6. #21
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    Joubert and Plushenko also apparently have superior spins to Lambiel since their scores for their spins were higher in the short program.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    Joubert and Plushenko also apparently have superior spins to Lambiel since their scores for their spins were higher in the short program.
    Lambiel is clearly the best spinner among men today. His spins were given level 3.Plushenko's spins were level 4. I have not seen the performances so I have not applied the rules to them. I believe the levels got them higher points, although Lambiel must have received high positive GOE's.

    Vash

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    The Duchensays were a team that 90% of fans seemed to be head and heals over and thought they deserved to win every event instead of Klimova/
    Ponamarenko; while many hardcore skating fans have said they were one of the most overrated teams ever, so while I have my own opinions on them I try not to get into a discussion to deep on them. They clearly inspire two extremes of views. All I will say is they were certainly extremely unique and original, some of their actual dance technique was quite flawed but they were good at hiding it.
    That and I cant stand the commentary he used to do for French-Canadian TV.
    K&P are my all time favorite ice dance team and I would never put the Dushenays over them. I would have placed Usova-Zhulin higher than D&D, but it was close. Ice dance rewards creativity and D&D had that, and they were great performers.

    Vash

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    His presentation scores were grossly inflated under the old system as well. Under the new COP he has not had success not because of judges, but because of himself, particularly last year. He did not have a single decent competition last year, except Europeans where he was a close 2nd to Plushenko. The judges gave him ridiculously inflated PCS scores even last year but he could not capatilize on them most of the time.

    This year until Europeans his scores were much more in line with reality until Europeans.
    The 6.0 system often gave high presentation scores to skaters that had difficult jumps/combinations and skated a clean program. When skaters made mistakes on jumps they were not rewarded for other things like spins, MIF, footwork. Joubert is a good jumper and when he landed the jumps, the 6.0 system gave him high presentation marks. However, he was not the only skater that benefitted from this.

    Vash

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    Lambiel is clearly the best spinner among men today. His spins were given level 3.Plushenko's spins were level 4. I have not seen the performances so I have not applied the rules to them. I believe the levels got them higher points, although Lambiel must have received high positive GOE's.

    Vash
    Whatever the reasons it shows that scoring for spins need to be revised since Lambiel has been getting similar scores as mediocre spinners like Plushenko and Lysacek all year, and it is crazy! You get no value for having much better spins. The GOE scores are poorly done, and they are reduced because they are lower point-getting elements anyway. Spin judging is terrable.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    The 6.0 system often gave high presentation scores to skaters that had difficult jumps/combinations and skated a clean program. When skaters made mistakes on jumps they were not rewarded for other things like spins, MIF, footwork. Joubert is a good jumper and when he landed the jumps, the 6.0 system gave him high presentation marks. However, he was not the only skater that benefitted from this.

    Vash
    Just curious, did you used to go on CNN figure skating boards? I think I remember somebody like you there.

    Good points on Joubert's presentation scores under the 6.0 system. Still he does not deserve some of the PCS scores he gets under the new system, especialy when he does not beat him opponents on TES scores.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    Whatever the reasons it shows that scoring for spins need to be revised since Lambiel has been getting similar scores as mediocre spinners like Plushenko and Lysacek all year, and it is crazy! You get no value for having much better spins. The GOE scores are poorly done, and they are reduced because they are lower point-getting elements anyway. Spin judging is terrable.
    Both Plushenko and Lysacek have weak spins. Evgeni can not do a real sitspin. He must be doing that horrendous bielman for the points but still no real sitspin.

    Joe

  13. #28
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    I read in a skating magazine a few months ago that Lambielknows that his spins aren't level four but feels they "look" better and isn't willing to change for the higher marks. So obviously it isn't an ability thing, it's a "choice" thing, and I imagine his marks will continue to suffer until he "gives in".

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Both Plushenko and Lysacek have weak spins. Evgeni can not do a real sitspin. He must be doing that horrendous bielman for the points but still no real sitspin.

    Joe
    Yeah but the scores still come out the same. It is crazy. You might as well do mediocre spins, you get the same scores as excellent spins, in fact sometimes higher.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shmuzzy
    I read in a skating magazine a few months ago that Lambielknows that his spins aren't level four but feels they "look" better and isn't willing to change for the higher marks. So obviously it isn't an ability thing, it's a "choice" thing, and I imagine his marks will continue to suffer until he "gives in".
    The judges dont even give him the GOE he deserve for his spins, and give inflated GOE to his competitors so he probably figures what is the point?

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