Mens FS | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Mens FS

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Vitacus said:
I'll go there and read you're reviews, thank you! :) Sorry if I offended you, Ant, or anyone else, ok?

One question: where exactly am I suppose to look for your posts about the other top skaters on that site? I'm there but don't know where to look. Could you give me the link? :scratch:

OK so here's a copy of my review of the men's competition...more general impressions - you'll see the biggest chunk is on Pluschenko - as others have said if you're the world/european champion you're going to come under more scrutiny than the rest.

An honest opinion about why people are picking him apart more than the others...the others have obvious errors that none skating fans can spot, for example, falling. Even a none skating fan can see if someoen falls they're not as good as the one who doesn't. Critiquing Pluschenko's flaws takes a bit more knowledge because he makes no obvious errors, the only thing he's guilty of is not doing everything 100%...so we're left looking at the 5% imperfections!

Also for me - i'm based in the UK so this is the first competition i've seen all season - i've yet to see any none Europeans skating program hence no comments on Butlle, sandhu, weir etc.

I'll post me review in after this comment.

Ant
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Review of Men

Starting with the men...i think my favourite has to be Van de Perren -
he didn't really get his jumps in either SP or LP this time round - i
think he's so freaked by having to do the 3A and Quad that its thrown
him off somewhat which is a shame, still despite the fall on the quad
in the LP he still bounced up and got the 3toe after it.


The first shallow comment i'd have about the Men's competition is the
truly heinous costumes they are all wearing. Every single one produced
hysterical laughter from a non skating fan friend who was watching with
me and i couldn't help but join in. The only one with nice costumes was
Pluschenko...a few years ago i think i would have had a heart attack if
someone had said in a few years time you'll be praising pluschenko's
costumes and ridiculing everyone elses. Lambiel's LP costume is just
hilarious...he's skating to Vivaldi's Four Seasons not "the zebra's
marched in two by two etc". And Joubert with his lord of the dance
meets Elvis/Evel Knievel"...the guy is far too into his pleather!
Dambier love him as i do needs better costumes...and what's with
ripping the front off his SP costume to Carmina Burana??


So actual skating comments - Pluschenko is beyohd light years ahead of
the rest of the field he has a command of the ice and surety on his
jumps that not a single other guy in the field had. The triple salchow
is fast becoming his nemesis jump but given that he lands everything
else i don't think it will cause him a problem, i wonder if working the
quad sal has thrown his timing for the triple and he opens out to the
double when the pressures on? I must confess to actually quite liking
the music to his LP and he's obviously made an effort keep the wild
arms flapping and head swinging to a minimum and only include it in his
step sequences...i still have an issue with the fact he demonstrates no
use of edge in his step sequence and its all about dragging his legs
behind him to give the impression of difficult position when i'm
convinced this guy couldn't execute a step seuqnece with both feet
firmly underneath him to save his life. He has no control on the
twizzles and falls out of them often but since his step sequence is so
frenetic it seems to fit...and hey when lambiel stumbles twice in his
step sequence you kind of have to give it to plushy! In his SP i don't
understand why he has the manic circular step sequence in for one of
the quietest sections of music...the head banging and arm flapping
really does look strange to the quiet and slow music but then his
musical interpretation has been pretty close to zero so i'm not
surprised. Huge props to him for landing a quad toe/triple loop combo
in the warm up for the SP he commented afterwards taht he hopes to use
the combo in the Olympics and that it was important for him to land it
in the warm up, Gwendal asked him why he didn't do it and Plushy seemed
to say that he'd talked with mischin and decided to leave it out when
it was clear that he didn't do it because the landing on the qud in the
SP was wonky and he was lucky to get a double toe in after it.


Joubert...i think he's pulling a Goebel and is past his best, a couple
of seasons ago he could rely on his jumping ability and being the only
other guy with a consistent quad and now he's struggling with the jumps
and doesn't have very much left outside it to fall back on , though i
will say this he's really gone from being one of the worst spinner sto
one of the best.


Lambiel...i really want to like his skating and his exhibitions are
beautiful - really purist smooth gorgeous flowing edges but i see none
of that in his competitive programs and the blame for that i lay at
CoP's door. I dislike the CoP step sequences - give me lambiel's
straight line step sequence from his "you're beautiful" exhibition
piece and that wipes the floor with anyone else's. I also don't agree
with his "best spinner in the world" title when he doesn't manage to
get his free leg at hip height on his camel, but i recognise that when
he changes positions/edges on his spins he stays rooted to the spot.


Dambier...i have loved watching dambier over the years and have really
liked his programs, they had a flare and style unlike anyone else's and
this year he's really focussed on the CoP to get CoP friendly programs
and the result is programs empty of choreogrpahy and any of his own
style in them. The biggst surprise is that David Wilson
co-choreographed it but i still don't think the programs are a patch on
either of his programs from two seasons ago. He's taken the quad sal
out of the SP and is doing the 3/3 instead.


Intersting comment from Robin Cousins when asked about the Olympics and
if anyone could challenge pluschenko he mentioned the North Americans
and said that for him Sandhu was the one to watch...we got some footage
of sandhu doing a 4/2 combination and you just hear a lady's voice
commentating quietly...don't know if it was footage from canadians or a
GP. Anyway i think given sandhu's problems with consistency that was
going out on a limb...perhaps he shares sandhu's disappointment at
canadians...who knows? Robin also commented that having been an ardent
hater of the new system he thinks it is the way to go even though he
feels its taken all of the artistry from the sport because people are
so focussed on the elements.


Final general comment about spins - ok so CoP may have forced them to
work on their spins but in the Men's competition all i saw was each
skater has worked on a very complicated combination spin (most of them
working in both the outside edge front sit and the inside edge back
sit) and then every other spin uses the same positions and changes
from the combo spin. Most are using the sit as their flying spin in
order to use the same enhancements they've learnt for the combination
spin and they all (though joubert not as much as the rest) have to rise
slightly and open the free leg out in a really ugly way to get the
outside edge front sit spin. So you just see the same spin over and
over again throughout the progam. Plushy did use a flying camel but did
the pancake as an enhancement and notably crawled round slowly.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Vitacus said:
Sorry if I came out sounding like sour grapes here but there are other top skaters to discuss, such as Lambiel, Weir, Buttle, Joubert, Sandhu etc. It seems everyone is so caught up with Plush's weaknesses when others have bad cases of bad postures, sloppy/unfinished moves, rushed elements, juniourish choreo, travelling spins, and so on and so forth. They all have weaknesses in their skating, both in the TE and PC department, just as they all have strengths. I would be interested in hearing yours and others opinions on the other top male skaters weaknesses, if anyone is up for the task?

Sorry if this is OT. :unsure:

Sorry if i raised up rather too quickly! No hard feelings.

I;ve written in another post that i think other's imperfections are easy to see and don't really require much comment. Joubert - is inconsistent, Lambiel has problems with his 3 Axel and general focus, Buttle - problesm with his quad and triple axel, Sandhu...god we don't even need to go into the depressing inconcsistency of this amazing skater.

As for Weir - his style and choreography leave me pretty much cold. He has beautiful jump technique but doesn't have the quad. I don't understand the huge raving about his programs but i see a purity in his basic skating that leaves me very impressed...completely none skating related - i love his off ice persona and his anti establishment ways. I love the fact he's not scared of being "girly" or feminine on the ice to contrast someone like Joubert's machismo.

The problem for me commenting on their chances ni Torino is that the Olympics will be the first tmie i see their programs this season so i have to reserve judgment til then!

Ant
 

diver chick

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 18, 2003
I think that unfortunately this thread is a lot more about trying to understand why Plushenko has such a large margin over the rest of the field and the knock on of that is that it appears that people are criticising his abilities while bigging up the others.

For my part I enjoy watching Plushenko skate, he is not the greatest all round skater in the world, but then neither was Yags and he was my favourite male skater at the time as Lambiel is now. Plushenko has an almost perfect jumping technique and has great passion and presentation but he does lack in some areas where other skaters are either equal to or better than him (eg Lambiel is a better spinner than Plushenko). For my part in this thread I am just trying to understand why such a difference in marks and it is unfortuante that it happens to be Plushenko ahead, I would be exactly the same had Lambiel won by the same margin as I think there are things lacking in his skating that would IMO prevent him from having such a large margin.

Apologies if it cam over like I was criticising Plushenko and his win, this is not the case.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Of course, critical skate fans (by which I mean those with more technical knowledge a category I don't include myself in) can pick apart the weaknesses of _any_ skaters for as long as someone will read/listen to them.

and don't forget the fans who have full faith and trust in the judging.

Joe
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Vitacus said:
Sorry, but what's with the constant bitching about Plush lately :scowl: I'ts getting tiring.

So, what you're all saying is that Plush has poor skating skills (like all Russians)? Basically he's crap in the Program Components and is not worthy of anything above 5's in PC's? He's a jumping bean because that's the only thing he's good at? Did I understand this correctly?

:sheesh:
It's Olys time and nitpicking comes with the angst of the fans.

Joe
 

Vitacus

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Thank you, Antmanb, for your reviews of the Men! :) It was very interesting to read and I do share many of your opinions on the Men.

diver chick said:
I think that unfortunately this thread is a lot more about trying to understand why Plushenko has such a large margin over the rest of the field and the knock on of that is that it appears that people are criticising his abilities while bigging up the others.

I know that now, but at the time it sounded more like criticising Plush while bigging up the others just like you said, and that's why I got upset. I don't like that behaviour in general. I understand better now! It's always very embarrassing when I realize I've been over reacting :laugh: :eek: :laugh:

Joesitz said:
It's Olys time and nitpicking comes with the angst of the fans.

Couldn't agree with you more :laugh: The pre-Olympics drama is pretty scary.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Vitacus said:
Thank you, Antmanb, for your reviews of the Men! :) It was very interesting to read and I do share many of your opinions on the Men.



I know that now, but at the time it sounded more like criticising Plush while bigging up the others just like you said, and that's why I got upset. I don't like that behaviour in general. I understand better now! It's always very embarrassing when I realize I've been over reacting :laugh: :eek: :laugh:



Couldn't agree with you more :laugh: The pre-Olympics drama is pretty scary.

Heh - this is nothing you should have been on the net back in 1998 when Lipinski/Kwan were going to the Olympics....now vileness like that i never want to be reading again!

Ant
 

Vitacus

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
antmanb said:
Heh - this is nothing you should have been on the net back in 1998 when Lipinski/Kwan were going to the Olympics....now vileness like that i never want to be reading again!

:eek: I can imagine the Lipinski/Kwan war being scary and here I thought it was pretty bad now with all the petty going ons on the many figure skating forums, heh!
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Mafke said:
No. But Plushenko does have uneven skills; unparalelled jumping ability (which no one has ever questioned as far as I know), great committment (he delivers his programs with a lot of authority and presence). On the other hand his footwork is more show than substance (antmanb gives a pretty detailed description of why) and his spins are at best kind of mediocre (not great speed, no real sitspin etc.)

God never gave anyone everything. Appreciating Plushenko's (considerable and undeniable) strengths does not mean his weakness don't exist. But judges seem to be giving him uniform high marks even where he's clearly not stronger than the rest of the field, as in spining (I've never seen a detailed analysis of his spins that says they're especially good).

And, for me at least, the Russian element doesn't enter into it. I'm not a Plushenko fan but Klimkin is my favorite male skater. Similarly, I find the (mostly) technically solid TT/MM boring, but think Petrova/Tikhonov are the overall best pair skaters in the world (as in having the best balanced pairs skills and in skating _as_ a pair, TT/MM still seem kind of like two very skilled skaters who haven't been together very long).

Finally, being the undisputed number one means people are going to criticize you more partly because they _expect_ more from a clear front runner than they do from one of several podium contenders.

No one person is best at absolutely everything he does. For example, Weir cannot do the quad, Buttle makes mistakes on jumps all the time, Lambiel cannot land the triple axel consistently. I don't see anyone picking on their weaknesses. If I were an outsider reading these posts, I would think Plushenko does not even deserve to be in the top 10. Sure, he is not the best spinner but he is continuously improving and he gets it done when it counts.

Vash
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I've seen plenty of nitpicking of the Quadless Weir; the unstable jumps of Buttle and I could add that there is a lot of flack toward Sandhu, Weiss, and Goebel but none of them were at Euros.

Lambiel and Joubert have gotten plenty of flack throughout the year; the former because he has been having a problem with the 3A, and Joubert's overall skating has not been up to par.

Nitpicking Evgeni is because he is considered 'unbeatable' and that goes with the territory. It's not all that serious. Everyone will say, he will win the Olys.

Joe
 

Vitacus

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Vash01 said:
No one person is best at absolutely everything he does. For example, Weir cannot do the quad, Buttle makes mistakes on jumps all the time, Lambiel cannot land the triple axel consistently. I don't see anyone picking on their weaknesses. If I were an outsider reading these posts, I would think Plushenko does not even deserve to be in the top 10. Sure, he is not the best spinner but he is continuously improving and he gets it done when it counts.

Yeah, that's how I pretty much feel too. Sometimes the things you read makes you wonder if he should even be top 10, like you said. Things are far worse on other forums though and one person started "Why I hate Plushenko" on another forum and it was bashing. Fortunately it was closed by the moderators. It's depressing to read the crap and I cannot phantom why anyone wouldn't consider him worthy after everything he's done for the sport, and still is doing, even Yags expressed his high praise for Plush.

One must also remember figure skating is first and foremost a sport and not to get it confused with some art exhibition. Without athleticism the sport will regress. COP doesn't favour technical elements and risk taking much anymore. Why risk doing a 3 Axel when one can do other triples instead? Why risk doing a quad when one get more points doing triples? Soon the 3 axel will be gone. Soon everyone will be doing 2 axels, or doubles in general. The spins already look pretty much the same, bah! Every program is starting to look the same because doing innovative/original elements (such as inventing a certain move for example) will not be rewarded by the judges unless it's in the rule book. If it's not in the ISU rule book it cannot exist. :scowl: The creators of COP even said it was created to favour the program components over technical elements. Don't get me wrong, I like to see wonderfully artsy programs and thinks that's great, but I also want to see the sport survive and it's less likely to survive if it turns into some sort of exhibition rather than sport, imho. We already have pro skating. Figure skating is first and foremost a sport after all!

Stepping off the soap box. :laugh:
 
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Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Vitacus said:
Yeah, that's how I pretty much feel too. Sometimes the things you read makes you wonder if he should even be top 10, like you said. Things are far worse on other forums though and one person started "Why I hate Plushenko" on another forum and it was bashing. Fortunately it was closed by the moderators. It's depressing to read the crap and I cannot phantom why anyone wouldn't consider him worthy after everything he's done for the sport, and still is doing, even Yags expressed his high praise for Plush.

One must also remember figure skating is first and foremost a sport and not to get it confused with some art exhibition. Without athleticism the sport will regress. COP doesn't favour technical elements and risk taking much anymore. Why risk doing a 3 Axel when one can do other triples instead? Why risk doing a quad when one get more points doing triples? Soon the 3 axel will be gone. Soon everyone will be doing 2 axels, or doubles in general. The spins already look pretty much the same, bah! Every program is starting to look the same because doing innovative/original elements (such as inventing a certain move for example) will not be rewarded by the judges unless it's in the rule book. If it's not in the ISU rule book it cannot exist. :scowl: The creators of COP even said it was created to favour the program components over technical elements. Don't get me wrong, I like to see wonderfully artsy programs and thinks that's great, but I also want to see the sport survive and it's less likely to survive if it turns into some sort of exhibition rather than sport, imho. We already have pro skating. Figure skating is first and foremost a sport after all!

Stepping off the soap box. :laugh:

ITA on both counts. That's how I have felt about the jumps not being rewarded enough under the COP. A skater like Tim Goebel started doing a safer 3-3 combination instead of a quad combination (except at the recent US nationals). When the points are added, the quad does not give much advantage to a skater, but a lot more risk. Skaters can botch jumps and still it counts as a jump with a negative GOE. I am also afraid that the sports side of FS is going to regress under the COP. When Yagudin and Plushenko were pushing each other in 2002, the sport became more exciting. People were wondering if anyone would complete a quad axel. Now they may just do a 3Z-2t instead of a 3A if they cannot land the 3A consistently.

The ISU needs to take a look at the points quickly and give more points for more difficult jumps, deduct more for mistakes (not just a -1 to -3 GOE), and reward difficulty in jumps. Under the 6.0 system a skater either landed a jump or he/she did not. They did not get away with two foot landings, step outs, hand down, etc. that easily.

That said, I do agree with others that high quality spins should be rewarded, as against simply going by the levels.

Vash
 

Jimena

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Am I the only person here who thinks that Lambiel is actually quite sloppy in his skating? He doesn't stretch, his posture is lacking and only one of his spins is up to his actual spinning ability.

And I'm so disappointed in his programs this year, specially the LP. He used to be so very lyrical and musical. I don't think these programs really bring out that quality at all. When I first saw him live I was astounded at his abilities, and now he's lost me. What I loved about him, is not there anymore. :(

Also, for all the criticism that Plushenko receives about standing around and flailing his arms, Lambiel at one point is standing up without skating for at least 10 seconds, and flails his arms IMO more than Plushenko! Why on earth has he done this?
 

Vitacus

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
As for the sloppiness, stretch and posture, no, you're not alone, Jimena. Also, just like you, I noticed the standing still while slowly flailing arms about for 15 seconds (I counted) in the free program. At least he isn't "slow as a snail", like Buttle. ;)
 
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Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Jimena said:
Am I the only person here who thinks that Lambiel is actually quite sloppy in his skating? He doesn't stretch, his posture is lacking and only one of his spins is up to his actual spinning ability.

And I'm so disappointed in his programs this year, specially the LP. He used to be so very lyrical and musical. I don't think these programs really bring out that quality at all. When I first saw him live I was astounded at his abilities, and now he's lost me. What I loved about him, is not there anymore. :(

Also, for all the criticism that Plushenko receives about standing around and flailing his arms, Lambiel at one point is standing up without skating for at least 10 seconds, and flails his arms IMO more than Plushenko! Why on earth has he done this?

I wouldn't quite call it sloppiness, but he is not as polished as Plushenko yet. Afterall he is only 20 years old and he has room to develop. I do agree with you about his posture. His arm movements did appear to be a bit excessive to me, like without a purpose at times, in his LP.

BTW, I find Plushenko's arm movements purposeful, and not just 'flailing of the arms' which he did when he was younger (e.g. in 2001).

Vash
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Vash - I believe there is a human element here albeit subliminally. A quad for the men and 3x3s for the ladies impresses the judges that the skaters have been taking the sport seriously. This in turn makes their GOEs on other elements go up. Just a thought on the psychology of the sport.

Joe
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Joesitz said:
Vash - I believe there is a human element here albeit subliminally. A quad for the men and 3x3s for the ladies impresses the judges that the skaters have been taking the sport seriously. This in turn makes their GOEs on other elements go up. Just a thought on the psychology of the sport.

Joe

You may have a point there Joe. In 2002 Sarah went for two 3-3 combinations. Even though her jumps were underrotated, the judges were impressed that she went for more difficult combinations, and Irina did not. I think the COP could reduce the influence of this, though not completely eliminate it. The quad theory does not seem to help Cheng Jiang Li though.

Vash
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Vash01 said:
No one person is best at absolutely everything he does. For example, Weir cannot do the quad, Buttle makes mistakes on jumps all the time, Lambiel cannot land the triple axel consistently. I don't see anyone picking on their weaknesses. If I were an outsider reading these posts, I would think Plushenko does not even deserve to be in the top 10. Sure, he is not the best spinner but he is continuously improving and he gets it done when it counts.

Vash

What on earth does this have to do with the very poor scoring of spins, and the inflated scores people like Plushenko get for their spins? Nobody said he does not deserve to be in the top 10, some of us are mystifyed how his spin scores are so high, and how he could ever have more points for spins than somebody like Lambiel however. He does not need them to win, and the ISU simply makes themselves look less credable than they already do to people.
 
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