The strongest ever mens field?

Shanti · Jan 23, 2006

Vash01 said:
Plushenko
Lambiel
Joubert
Weir
Buttle
Lysacek
Sandhu

You must be kidding about Lysacek for OGM. I have a good imagination but fail to imagine it (IMHO even Klimkin is a more likely OGM winner).

IMHO Weir, Lysacek as well as other "candidates" from the "long shot list" (Li, Lindemann, KVDP) can win only if all of the following happens:
- Plushenko "no show"
- Lambiel "no-show"
- Joubert - melt-down a la Moscow 2005
- Sandhu - melt-down a la GPF 2005
- Buttle - uninspired flawed performance

nicole_l · Jan 23, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
What field do you think is the strongest ever?

1994, probably. I didn't follow skating back then, but several men reinstated, right?

hockeyfan228 · Jan 23, 2006

nicole_l said:
1994, probably. I didn't follow skating back then, but several men reinstated, right?

They did, but their skills weren't as honed as G/G's and M/D's, and by 1994, it was Quad World. Neither Boitano nor Petrenko had one, and Petrenko was not known for being in the best of shape during his eligible days. It was lack of conditioning that spoiled the second half of what up to then had been a near-perfect LP in 1992.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 23, 2006

DORISPULASKI said:
Joe, Totally right--I was out the door before I remembered I had left him out. And for sure he is about the only hope to unseat Plushy. What I worry about with Lambiel is the SP-screwing up his 3A and getting shoved so far back he can't recover. It happened with Klimkin at Euros-he had a good LP, and all he missed in the SP was the 3A-and he was slotted so far back, he couldn't make up enough ground.

Both Klimkin and Lambiel have something going for them if they skate clean. That will affect the pro Plush judges if K or L or both of them falter on any jump. I don't think if Plush falters there will be any more deduction than a wrist slap. And with those 'much improved' spins, well Plush's scores will be right up there with both of them.

Joe

soogar · Jan 23, 2006

For all the talk about COP, I guarantee you that the skaters with the quads will make up the podium and that Buttle, Weir and Lysacyk only have shots at medals if everyone wipes out. I think that with all the skaters working to bring up the levels in their elements, the field has narrowed between skaters who can spin and jumps and skaters who just jump. Everyone has made improvements and the judging this year has shown that Lambiel and Plushenko are the two who will compete for gold. Both of these men have quad jumps in their arsenal. Klimkin has proven this year that he is back and he has been competing very well. He too has consistent quads and his skates at Euros have put him back on the map with the judges.

slutskayafan21 · Jan 23, 2006

yelyoh said:
One look at the Euros results and you know nobody will be atop the podium 'cept Plush. There will be no Yaga at Olys so it's EP's to lose. IF EP has a terrible skate (not going to happen) and Lambiel a perfect one then maybe not.

As for the others, I would say Lambiel has a good silver or bronze shot unless he misses the 3x in both programs and a quad and winds up on his butt twice. With Joubert's very high (?????) PCS scores at Euros I think the judges are ready to give him a medal of some sort. On the tech side, a clean quad and his level 3s and 4s on his other tech elements will put him out of reach of JW or JB. Their PCS scores will not be any higher than Joubert's though they should be as the guy rarely skates on one foot through his footwork sequences and is no spinner. So at best JB and JW have an remote shot at a bronze (though their PCS elements SHOULD make then contenders in a fair world). As for Li, I think he is the best jumper out there and I actually like his quirky presentation but he doesn't get rewarded by the judges no matter what he does. I think the podium will be EP, SL and BJ.

I agree with all you said. :rock:

slutskayafan21 · Jan 23, 2006

DORISPULASKI said:
If you want a really great men's field, I recommend watching the 1988 Olympics, particularly the SP. The results, of course, were influenced by figures. The top 3 spots were supposed to be predetermined to be the 3 world champions that were competing (Boitano, Orser, Fadeev, with the edge given to Orser), but if you look at the up-and-comers, you'll realize that if either Brian or Petrenko had faltered, there were good performances in plenty that could have been rewarded..

Here's who was skating:

Brian Boitano
Brian Orser
Viktor Petrenko
Alexander Fadeev
Grzegorz Filipowski
Vladimir Kotin
Paul Wylie
Chris Bowman
Kurt Browning
Petr Barna
Heiko Fischer

I didnt find the 88 mens Olympics field that strong. Fadeev was so erratic and almost medaled with horrable short and long program performances. Kotin did not have a triple axel(similar to a quad now)and was technicaly flawed. Filipowski was technicaly solid, but artisticaly dead. Wylie and Bowman did not have triple axels yet, and Wylie struggled with figures, Browning was also young, struggled with figures, and did not yet have a definied style or much polish in his skating. Barna and Fischer were average at that point except for their very good compulsory figures.

Orser and Browning were on another planet from the other guys, just like Plushenko is now.

The best mens fields ever were the 1984 and 2002 fields IMO.

attyfan · Jan 23, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
They did, but their skills weren't as honed as G/G's and M/D's, and by 1994, it was Quad World. Neither Boitano nor Petrenko had one, and Petrenko was not known for being in the best of shape during his eligible days. It was lack of conditioning that spoiled the second half of what up to then had been a near-perfect LP in 1992.

Just out of curiosity -- who landed quads in the '94 Olys? I recall hearing somehwere that Kulik in '98 was the first man to win the OGM with a quad.

hockeyfan228 · Jan 23, 2006

attyfan said:
Just out of curiosity -- who landed quads in the '94 Olys? I recall hearing somehwere that Kulik in '98 was the first man to win the OGM with a quad.

He was. But Stojko landed the first quad combo at 2001 Worlds, and Urmanov had one. But it was like with Eldredge under 6.0; it didn't matter if anyone else landed a quad, it only mattered that Eldredge didn't have one.

slutskayafan21 · Jan 23, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
He was. But Stojko landed the first quad combo at 2001 Worlds, and Urmanov had one. But it was like with Eldredge under 6.0; it didn't matter if anyone else landed a quad, it only mattered that Eldredge didn't have one.

You mean 97 Worlds. Also in 94 nobody was doing a quad regularly, although Stojko did one at the 94 Worlds.

mememe · Jan 23, 2006

attyfan said:
Just out of curiosity -- who landed quads in the '94 Olys? I recall hearing somehwere that Kulik in '98 was the first man to win the OGM with a quad.

Nobody landed a quad at 1994 Olympics -- I don't even remember one being attempted. Stojko had one scheduled early in his program, but he bailed out of his first triple axel attempt early in his program and so substituted a triple axel-triple toe (?) in the place the quad had been scheduled. Urmanov didn't try a quad -- in fact, had no triple-triple either -- had a triple toe-into-triple salchow, I think, but as I recall, no actual triple-triple. Candeloro hit, I think, 5-6 clean triples? I'd have to go back and check my tapes, but his technique left a LOT to be desired. And didn't he fall on that second triple axel? I seem to remember him falling on that second attempt. I believe Petrenko actually finished third in the free skate, Browning fourth, Candeloro fifth and Boitano sixth.

Vash01 · Jan 24, 2006

DORISPULASKI said:
I'd make a case that it is the weakest men's field I can remember. Plushy at the top, and the rest competing in a race to the bottom. The only question is Plushy's health and whether he has the same sort of mental Olympics-only glitch that he had in 2002.

Plushy (health problems, but unless he withdraws, a lock)

Buttle (consistently flawed, no quad, but is going to try one (thus spotting Plushy one fall in the LP))
Sandhu (even more consistently flawed, a head case)
Joubert (another head case)
Li (stamina problems, and judges don't like him)
Takahashi (head case, but young, he may get over it, no quad)
Lysacek (no quad, weak LP skating to Oh No Carmen, falls a lot too, worse, plans to try a quad (think Todd Eldredge as well as Buttle))
Weir (health problems, weak LP replaced for last year's LP,no quad but plans to try one another one)
Lindemann (not skating well the last two years)

At this point, I expect a splatfest, but hope to be surprised by Wylie-like performances from men unlisted.above...maybe Preaubert or Dambier. (I love Preaubert's SP with the imaginary bee in it) or Klimkin. He skated a great LP at Europeans. If he hadn't done a waltz jump in the SP, he might well have medalled there).

If you want a really great men's field, I recommend watching the 1988 Olympics, particularly the SP. The results, of course, were influenced by figures. The top 3 spots were supposed to be predetermined to be the 3 world champions that were competing (Boitano, Orser, Fadeev, with the edge given to Orser), but if you look at the up-and-comers, you'll realize that if either Brian or Petrenko had faltered, there were good performances in plenty that could have been rewarded..

Here's who was skating:

Brian Boitano
Brian Orser
Viktor Petrenko
Alexander Fadeev
Grzegorz Filipowski
Vladimir Kotin
Paul Wylie
Chris Bowman
Kurt Browning
Petr Barna
Heiko Fischer

At the 1988 Olympics the gold was between the two Brians, with Fadeev being a potential spoiler. He withdrew and it was left upto young Viktor Petrenko to take over for the bronze.

Skaters other than the two Brians were really not at the top in 1988. Browning was a youngster who placed 12th. Bowman, Barna, Petrenko were skaters of the future. Filipowski had been competing since age 13 but his best performance came in worlds 1989. Wylie skated a great SP but he did not get accepted as a top skater until the 1992 Olympics. Kotin was good but definitely not a top skater. I have never heard of Fischer (was he a world medalist at any time?)

I disagree that the 1988 Olympics field was stronger than the 2006 field. I still maintain that Plushenko can be beaten by a number of skaters because of the COP (and his health/injury problems).

Vash

hockeyfan228 · Jan 24, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
You mean 97 Worlds. Also in 94 nobody was doing a quad regularly, although Stojko did one at the 94 Worlds.

Sorry, I meant 1991 Worlds, where he did the first quad/double. He did the first quad/triple at 1997 Worlds.

http://www.jacksonskates.com/html/jumphist.html

slutskayafan21 · Jan 24, 2006

mememe said:
Nobody landed a quad at 1994 Olympics -- I don't even remember one being attempted. Stojko had one scheduled early in his program, but he bailed out of his first triple axel attempt early in his program and so substituted a triple axel-triple toe (?) in the place the quad had been scheduled. Urmanov didn't try a quad -- in fact, had no triple-triple either -- had a triple toe-into-triple salchow, I think, but as I recall, no actual triple-triple. Candeloro hit, I think, 5-6 clean triples? I'd have to go back and check my tapes, but his technique left a LOT to be desired. And didn't he fall on that second triple axel? I seem to remember him falling on that second attempt. I believe Petrenko actually finished third in the free skate, Browning fourth, Candeloro fifth and Boitano sixth.

Candelero actually landed 7 clean triples. A triple axel-double toe, a triple lutz, a triple flip, a triple loop, a triple salchow, and a triple toe-triple toe. His only mistake was planning on a planned 2nd triple axel into a single waxel-fall in the last 10 seconds of the program. You are right that his technique left alot to be desired though. Still his scores were high enough he may have won silver, or even gold with that last triple axel(which he has never landed cleanly though). You are right that Urmanov had no triple-triple, he had 8 triples including 2 triple axels though. Stojko substituted the triple axel-triple toe for the quad as you said, a smart move since he might have missed the quad and then he would have been really screwed. Stojko finished with 7 triples, including 2 triple axels, and that triple axel-triple toe combo.

Actually Browning was 3rd in the free, Petrenko 4th, it was a 5-4 split between them when they finished. You are right that Candelero was 5th in the long, Boitano 6th. Urmanov had 6 1st place votes, Petrenko 1(the judge from Romania gave him 5.9 tech, 6.0 art, .4 higher than any other judge, skating from the 2nd to last flight of course), Stojko 1, and Candelero 1. Interestingly though 8of the 9 judges had Urmanov over Stojko, including the Canadian(who had Urmanov 1st, Stojko 2nd). Interestingly as well the 1 judge who had Stojko over Urmanov was the French judge(so the French judge was not the judge to give Candelero his lone 1st place vote). The French judge though had Stojko 1st, Candelero 2nd, and Urmanov 5th, so while 8 of the 9 judges had Urmanov over Stojko, the lone one who didnt had Stojko 4 places above. :rofl:

The strongest ever mens field?

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