Lambiel should do higher level spins, does he even realize this?

slutskayafan21 · Jan 23, 2006

Even though he cant control the judges scoring GOE so poorly and not getting the GOE he deserves for his spins, and his competitors getting inflated GOE, Lambiel should be doing higher level spins. I have no doubt a spinner of his calibre would be capable of doing all level 4 spins and doing them well(
although with the judges it doesnt matter if you do them well or not). He is doing two level 1 spins in the long program. That is crazy to give up points doing lower level spins when you have the best spins out there.

Doggygirl · Jan 23, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
He is doing two level 1 spins in the long program. That is crazy to give up points doing lower level spins when you have the best spins out there.

I share that opinion, especially for a guy that is known as a great spinner.

DG

Mathman · Jan 23, 2006

He has his pride. He knows the difference between a good spin and a level 4 spin.

Mafke · Jan 24, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
Even though he cant control the judges scoring GOE so poorly and not getting the GOE he deserves for his spins, and his competitors getting inflated GOE, Lambiel should be doing higher level spins. I have no doubt a spinner of his calibre would be capable of doing all level 4 spins and doing them well (although with the judges it doesnt matter if you do them well or not).

This is the big problem with how COP is shaping up. I really think that in their cluelessness those who designed the system thought that skaters would do what they do best and the judges would decide that skater A does complicated spins well and skater B does easy spins well, skater A gets more points. The end.

They really haven't seem to come to grips yet with the idea that skaters are no longer doing so much what they do well, but what gets the points WHETHER OR NOT THEY CAN DO IT WELL BECAUSE THEY GET THE POINTS EVEN WHEN THEY DON'T DO IT WELL (sorry for shouting, I had to get that off my chest). Ugly changes of edge from one ugly position to the next? Lots of skaters can do that, and as you point out they're not being dinged in GOE. The same goes with Biellmann, positions. Very few skaters can do a Biellmann well but lots can do half-assed ones (I'd say Slute's is at most 3/4 assed) and that's all that counts now. Blechh.

I so look up to Lambiel for choosing substance over ugly form. I only wish that every commentator would point out how Lambiel's beautiful, fast, well-positioned and well centered spins get less than slow ugly spins that come to a virtual dead halt.

As someone pointed out, there's a difference between a good spin and a level 4 spin. Lambiel, god bless him, is rubbing the judges noses in it.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 24, 2006

Good points, MM and Mafke. Spinning was never Plush's selling point. No question about his jumps, his footwork, his ability to work the audience (and judges) but spins???? Which of the spins he does is Level 4?

Joe

slutskayafan21 · Jan 24, 2006

Mafke said:
This is the big problem with how COP is shaping up. I really think that in their cluelessness those who designed the system thought that skaters would do what they do best and the judges would decide that skater A does complicated spins well and skater B does easy spins well, skater A gets more points. The end.

They really haven't seem to come to grips yet with the idea that skaters are no longer doing so much what they do well, but what gets the points WHETHER OR NOT THEY CAN DO IT WELL BECAUSE THEY GET THE POINTS EVEN WHEN THEY DON'T DO IT WELL (sorry for shouting, I had to get that off my chest). Ugly changes of edge from one ugly position to the next? Lots of skaters can do that, and as you point out they're not being dinged in GOE. The same goes with Biellmann, positions. Very few skaters can do a Biellmann well but lots can do half-assed ones (I'd say Slute's is at most 3/4 assed) and that's all that counts now. Blechh.

I so look up to Lambiel for choosing substance over ugly form. I only wish that every commentator would point out how Lambiel's beautiful, fast, well-positioned and well centered spins get less than slow ugly spins that come to a virtual dead halt.

As someone pointed out, there's a difference between a good spin and a level 4 spin. Lambiel, god bless him, is rubbing the judges noses in it.

I totally agree. Anybody who watches Lambiel spin, and Plushenko, Lysacek, or Joubert spin would probably say "wow that Swiss guy probably picks up 10 picks on those guys from spinning alone right?" Then one should show this naive spectator that Plushenko, Joubert, and Lysacek actually get more points for their mediocre or worse spins than Lambiel's stunning spins. I wish they could be revealed to more people to further embarass the pathetic system, terrable judging, and mess the ISU have made of the so-called "complete skaters" system in some areas, foremost in that spins.

Mathman · Jan 24, 2006

Joesitz said:
Good points, MM and Mafke. Spinning was never Plush's selling point. No question about his jumps, his footwork, his ability to work the audience (and judges) but spins???? Which of the spins he does is Level 4?

Plushenko got level 4 on both of his two "change-foot combination spins" and he got level 3 on his two "flying spins" (sit and camel).

Lambiel, on the other hand, got two level threes and two level 1's! -- what beginners get at the novice level.

Doggygirl · Jan 24, 2006

Mathman said:
Lambiel, on the other hand, got two level threes and two level 1's! -- what beginners get at the novice level.

I still can't believe he's not leveraging his spinning abilities more effectively in competition. To the degree the comments about this sort of being a rebellious thing on his part - the scoring system is still the scoring system. I love watching him, and I will personally be heartbroken if he skates cleanly, and loses a spot (potentially a medal spot) over a couple points where the L1 spins v. harder spins might have made the difference.

But statistically, I think it would be safe to say that there is a greater liklihood of him losing much bigger points to 3A problems. I hope not, but...

DG

antmanb · Jan 24, 2006

Mathman said:
Plushenko got level 4 on both of his two "change-foot combination spins" and he got level 3 on his two "flying spins" (sit and camel).

Lambiel, on the other hand, got two level threes and two level 1's! -- what beginners get at the novice level.

MM (or anyone) do you know what level enhancers he did to get level 3's on his flying camel?

He transitions to the donut spin which must be a difficult variation but what else did he do? Maybe he changes edges too? I can't remember him changing edges but even if he does that's only 2 enhancers...

Ant

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 24, 2006

Can anyone name the two jumps Plush does that gets him a level 4?

Joe

antmanb · Jan 25, 2006

Joesitz said:
Can anyone name the two jumps Plush does that gets him a level 4?

Joe

Joe - if you mean spins - MM wrote earlier in the thread its his two change foot combo spins that get him level 4s, jumps don't have levels.

I haven't had the time to get my dvd out from Euros but i'm having serious doubts as to how he can get level 3s and 4s for his spins especially for his combination spin since the only thing he does is change edges...unless a "diffcult variation in body position" is counted by the fact he doesn't go all the way down on his sit?!!! Either that or they're counting his hair positions as difficult variations :biggrin:

Does anyone have a link to the rules where the level enhancers for spins are set out? I can't find them in the main rules and the communication where they once were stated doesn't appear to be on the isu site anymore....anyone thinking they've been taken off the site pre Olympics lest anyone go and try and blow holes in the levels assigned during the Olympics???

Ok i'll set myself some homework - i'll go home and check the dvd and report on every spin Plushy does in his LP, if someone posts the link to the level enhancers we can do the check list and see if Plushy's being help up/Lambiel's getting screwed by the caller...and speaking of which, who was the caller at Euros?

Ant

Mathman · Jan 25, 2006

antmanb said:
...unless a "diffcult variation in body position" is counted by the fact he doesn't go all the way down on his sit?!!!

Either that or they're counting his hair positions as difficult variations

The caller was Scott Davis (USA). It is kind of annoying that the ISU does not list the nationalities of the judges any more. You have to look up each one separate by name if you are curious aboput that.

I suppose they are tryng to move to a new era of less national Chauvinism in the sport (lots of luck, LOL.)

MM

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 26, 2006

Mathman said:
:
The caller was Scott Davis (USA). It is kind of annoying that the ISU does not list the nationalities of the judges any more. You have to look up each one separate by name if you are curious aboput that.MM

MM - Will I ever learn the CoP 100%?.:scratch: Does the Caller announce the Levels of the elements executed?

Joe

antmanb · Jan 26, 2006

Joesitz said:
MM - Will I ever learn the CoP 100%?.:scratch: Does the Caller announce the Levels of the elements executed?

Joe

Yes - the caller is responsible for naming the jumps and assigingin levels to spins and footwork.

At British nationals though i was sat right by the judges and could here the caller in the men's event. What i could hear was she was announcing what th element was before it was done...which i found very strange since i thought the judges were given the planning sheet which says what the planned element list is.

Ant

antmanb · Jan 26, 2006

antmanb said:
Joe - if you mean spins - MM wrote earlier in the thread its his two change foot combo spins that get him level 4s, jumps don't have levels.

I haven't had the time to get my dvd out from Euros but i'm having serious doubts as to how he can get level 3s and 4s for his spins especially for his combination spin since the only thing he does is change edges...unless a "diffcult variation in body position" is counted by the fact he doesn't go all the way down on his sit?!!! Either that or they're counting his hair positions as difficult variations

Does anyone have a link to the rules where the level enhancers for spins are set out? I can't find them in the main rules and the communication where they once were stated doesn't appear to be on the isu site anymore....anyone thinking they've been taken off the site pre Olympics lest anyone go and try and blow holes in the levels assigned during the Olympics???

Ok i'll set myself some homework - i'll go home and check the dvd and report on every spin Plushy does in his LP, if someone posts the link to the level enhancers we can do the check list and see if Plushy's being help up/Lambiel's getting screwed by the caller...and speaking of which, who was the caller at Euros?

Ant

Sorry i didnt' do my homework - i'll try to do this in the next couple of days cos i'm intersted!

Ant

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 26, 2006

This is a must for TV viewing. I can see Evgeni getting top scores for his very carefully executed jumps. If his footwork is not all the level high, he will sell it to the audience anyway and it will become a high level.

It's the spins which now one expects him to be a master of is really the correct level then there is no way Brian, Chengjian, Takahashi, Buttle, Sandhu, Weir, or, of course, Lambiel to even come close to his final scores.

The Olys will not be suspenseful in this discipline.

Joe

Koroleva · Jan 27, 2006

Because he can't land any jumps?

Lambiel should do higher level spins, does he even realize this?

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

Doggygirl

Mathman

Mafke

Joesitz (RIP)

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

Mathman

Doggygirl

antmanb

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

antmanb

Joesitz (RIP)

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