New post-Europeans Sonia Bianchetti article

Imo

One thing I disagree with, under the old system a clean program was very important and for good reason; the flow and beauty of the program wasn't disrupted. It has little value under CoP. Also, under the old system Irina would not be getting inflated PCS. It's not that Irina doesn't deserve reasonably solid PCS but they shouldn't even approach Sasha's or Michelle's. I think the new system is unwieldy and difficult to comprehend for people who have followed figure skating for years, and for the average viewer as well. It was a bad fix, for a non-existant problem, by the ISU because they didn't know how to stand by the original and right result during the pairs competition at SLC (I couldn't care less about the French judge situation-it had nothing to do with anything except to give the Canadians a reason to jump up and down)). I can only think of a few times I didn't totally agree with the outcomes, and even then, I understood how they arrived at them.
But you know her most important point was that the quality of execution is completely ignored. I totally agree with that observation and that is why the sport is being destroyed. It doesn't matter if the jump is beautiful, only that it is done.

gracefulswan said:

how sokolova got no +GEOs on her jumps... etc.

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I watched the re-run of Europeans on ESPN2 Sunday night, expecting that Sokolova wuzrobbed on her jumps. However, I noticed that nearly every jump was telegraphed, anywhere from -1 to -3 GOE deduction required. That would null out the +GOE she would have gotten on height. In her 3/2/2 combination, the landing on the 3 was iffy, and she was slow and very close to the boards on the second 2. Entry and landing is supposed to be considered in scoring.

hockeyfan228 said:

I watched the re-run of Europeans on ESPN2 Sunday night, expecting that Sokolova wuzrobbed on her jumps. However, I noticed that nearly every jump was telegraphed, anywhere from -1 to -3 GOE deduction required. That would null out the +GOE she would have gotten on height. In her 3/2/2 combination, the landing on the 3 was iffy, and she was slow and very close to the boards on the second 2. Entry and landing is supposed to be considered in scoring.

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Hockeyfan - I know what you are saying. I saw the routine in Skate America and there was absolutely no choreography to it. Czisny deserved to beat her in the LP. She can be a powerful jumper as we witnessed in DC Worlds, but as you say, those jumps are very much telegraphed.

A big problem I have with the GOEs is that they seem to be whimsical. If one looks at the score sheets, how often do you see a unanimous scoring, if ever, by these supposed experts?

Joe

Is anyone else as sick of edge change spins as I am under this new COP? I think it takes the beauty out of spinning, looks awkward and, well, it's just not aesthetically pleasing as the "old' spins.

megsk8z said:

Is anyone else as sick of edge change spins as I am under this new COP? I think it takes the beauty out of spinning, looks awkward and, well, it's just not aesthetically pleasing as the "old' spins.

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I agree completely. To me, it's not so much changing edges as the required postition changes. If you stick your elbow out at an awkward angle, you get three tenths of a point more for the element.

Mathman said:

If you stick your elbow out at an awkward angle, you get three tenths of a point more for the element.

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What if you perform an element so close to the side of the rink, and you stick your elbow out so far, that you whack a judge? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that that's an automatic +2 GOE (+3 if you can catch part of a fur coat).

A lot of people have made some very fascinating, and on-target, observations about the NJS. I only agree with about half of what Bianchetti said, and I do want to read her book Cracked Ice before the Olympics begin.

I would like to take this opportunity to once again tout the SJS -- the Spirit Judging System (TM): 9 dogs with motion sensors hooked up to their tails. The more the dogs' tails wag, the higher the score.

Mathman said:

I agree completely. To me, it's not so much changing edges as the required postition changes. If you stick your elbow out at an awkward angle, you get three tenths of a point more for the element.

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Just an alternate POV on edge changes in spins. Not being a skater myself (therefore a novice viewer) I never would have recognized an edge change in a spin, nor contemplated the difficulty of that, if not for COP and the subsequent bad ones we've seen. But now that we see bad ones, I actually recognize a GOOD one, and can appreciate it. As an example, Michael Weiss did a sit spin with an edge change right in front of where I was sitting during FS practice at Nats. It was very smooth, and he maintained the same speed and centering (at least to my eye) through the edge change. It really helped me appreciate what I think it's supposed to look like. I'm not saying MW is the greatest spinner of all time - it was just an "in your face" example that helped me appreciate the move in a new way.

1.5 cents...

DG

Spirit said:

What if you perform an element so close to the side of the rink, and you stick your elbow out so far, that you whack a judge? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that that's an automatic +2 GOE (+3 if you can catch part of a fur coat).

A lot of people have made some very fascinating, and on-target, observations about the NJS. I only agree with about half of what Bianchetti said, and I do want to read her book Cracked Ice before the Olympics begin.

I would like to take this opportunity to once again tout the SJS -- the Spirit Judging System (TM): 9 dogs with motion sensors hooked up to their tails. The more the dogs' tails wag, the higher the score.

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LOL, is there a +4 GOE provision if you nail Speedy??

Cracked Ice is an interesting read. If even half of what Sonia describes as her experience is true, then no wonder she has trouble IMO trying to be objective about Speedy and the ISU.

I'll contribute 4 dogs to the SJS. The Beagle will be a real ringer as he wags more than most 9 dogs put together. We often joke that as he continues to get older, his tail will be the first thing to go.

DG

kyla2 said:

One thing I disagree with, under the old system a clean program was very important and for good reason; the flow and beauty of the program wasn't disrupted. It has little value under CoP. Also, under the old system Irina would not be getting inflated PCS. It's not that Irina doesn't deserve reasonably solid PCS but they shouldn't even approach Sasha's or Michelle's. I think the new system is unwieldy and difficult to comprehend for people who have followed figure skating for years, and for the average viewer as well. It was a bad fix, for a non-existant problem, by the ISU because they didn't know how to stand by the original and right result during the pairs competition at SLC (I couldn't care less about the French judge situation-it had nothing to do with anything except to give the Canadians a reason to jump up and down)). I can only think of a few times I didn't totally agree with the outcomes, and even then, I understood how they arrived at them.
But you know her most important point was that the quality of execution is completely ignored. I totally agree with that observation and that is why the sport is being destroyed. It doesn't matter if the jump is beautiful, only that it is done.

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I actually agree with you that perhaps a clean program isn't given the credit it deserves under the new system...however, I think it's always a question, or tension, between somebody pushing the envelope technically, and doing more difficult elements, as opposed to someone who does easier elements, but clean. It's a judgement call. For example, I would argue that a program by Plushenko in which he did his usual tech elements, but fell on a triple axel, say, should still win over a program where someone did nothing but doubles. I'm not sure what the solution is....maybe a bonus, for skating clean?

Anyway, I have to say, however, I was shocked by your stance regarding the 2002 pairs debacle. Putting aside any question of who should have won, because while I have an opinion, (opposite from yours, by the way, in case you were wondering) the real problem WAS the corruption, and I can't understand how you can dismiss it. Corruption in judging doesn't matter??? Surely you can't be serious. Personally, I think it's an offense to the sport that the French judge and federation president are allowed anywhere near ISU sanctioned competitions after what they did. I'm also appalled that no proper investigation was ever conducted to determine who on the Russian side was culpable. A deal, after all, means an agreement between TWO parties. I must disagree with you. There was, and is a problem in figure skating: corruption of judges and other officials.

rain - there is a corps of posters who do not want to talk about corruption but argue relentlessly about who should have won.

As to whom the other party was in the deal, Speedy has ensured, we will never know.

Joe

rain said:

I actually agree with you that perhaps a clean program isn't given the credit it deserves under the new system...however, I think it's always a question, or tension, between somebody pushing the envelope technically, and doing more difficult elements, as opposed to someone who does easier elements, but clean. It's a judgement call. For example, I would argue that a program by Plushenko in which he did his usual tech elements, but fell on a triple axel, say, should still win over a program where someone did nothing but doubles. I'm not sure what the solution is....maybe a bonus, for skating clean?

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Interesting suggestion. Maybe something like +3 for having no negative GOE on any of your elements in the SP and +5 in the LP? I'll try to find some examples:

Bebe Liang's Nationals SP
Irina Slutskaya's Cup of China SP
Stephane Lambiel's GPF SP
Jeff Buttle's GPF SP
Irina Slutskaya's GPF LP
Mao Asada's GPF SP
Totmianina and Marinin's GPF SP
Obertas and Slavnov's GPF SP
All of the GPF ODs except for Dubreuil and Lauzon's and Delobel and Scheonfelder's, and all of the FDs
Elena Sokolova's Skate America SP
Yoshie Onda's Skate America SP

rain said:

Putting aside any question of who should have won, because while I have an opinion, (opposite from yours, by the way, in case you were wondering) the real problem WAS the corruption, and I can't understand how you can dismiss it. Corruption in judging doesn't matter??? Surely you can't be serious. Personally, I think it's an offense to the sport that the French judge and federation president are allowed anywhere near ISU sanctioned competitions after what they did. I'm also appalled that no proper investigation was ever conducted to determine who on the Russian side was culpable. A deal, after all, means an agreement between TWO parties. I must disagree with you. There was, and is a problem in figure skating: corruption of judges and other officials.

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ITA with this. I hadn't yet discovered internet discussion boards at the time of the 2002 Oly's, so wasn't around to experience the "who should have won" debate. And while that debate is legitimate (assuming ALL such debates are legitmate!!) I am disappointed that the Russian side of things was either never investigated fully, or never fully revealed. The corruption in the judging of this event was sad, and so unfair to the athletes in question, and the sport in general.

DG

Doggygirl said:

LOL, is there a +4 GOE provision if you nail Speedy??

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That's automatic gold.

Doggygirl said:

I'll contribute 4 dogs to the SJS. The Beagle will be a real ringer as he wags more than most 9 dogs put together. We often joke that as he continues to get older, his tail will be the first thing to go.

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Did someone mention beagle?

Doggygirl said:

ITA with this. I hadn't yet discovered internet discussion boards at the time of the 2002 Oly's, so wasn't around to experience the "who should have won" debate. And while that debate is legitimate (assuming ALL such debates are legitmate!!) I am disappointed that the Russian side of things was either never investigated fully, or never fully revealed. The corruption in the judging of this event was sad, and so unfair to the athletes in question, and the sport in general.

DG

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I was around (a different board) during the 2002 pairs "who should have won" debate and voiced my opinion. I also respected the opinions of those who disagreed with me. It was a close contest and there are legitimate arguments on both sides. And trust me, there's no convincing either side they're wrong, lol. The only posts I really couldn't stomach, however, were the ones that denied outright that there was cheating (yes, even in the face of the confession of the French judge), or said the cheating didn't matter somehow and S/P and the North American media should have just quietly retired into a corner with their second place and not rocked the boat.

IMO, such corruption should not, and cannot be tolerated. It really hurt the sport of figure skating. I thought it was horrific how the ISU waited a few months, gave a few slaps on the wrist, then swept it all under the carpet. It demonstrated a rotten core in the ISU that taints my view of competitions to this day (not that I had never suspected corrupt judging before - remember CTV catching the foot tapping incident on camera? — or the joke that the ice dancing event was for decades — but this incident somehow seemed worse, due to the silver platter opportunity presented for clean-up and the subsequent blatant turning away from that opportunity by those at the sport's highest levels.)

This is where I think Bianchetti's article goes off the rails somewhat. Her yearning back to the days of 6.0 with the argument that COP hasn't fixed the corruption in judging, ignores the fact that the corruption was living and thriving under 6.0 and we got some equally ridiculous results.

rain said:

The only posts I really couldn't stomach, however, were the ones that denied outright that there was cheating (yes, even in the face of the confession of the French judge), or said the cheating didn't matter somehow and S/P and the North American media should have just quietly retired into a corner with their second place and not rocked the boat.

IMO, such corruption should not, and cannot be tolerated. It really hurt the sport of figure skating. I thought it was horrific how the ISU waited a few months, gave a few slaps on the wrist, then swept it all under the carpet. It demonstrated a rotten core in the ISU that taints my view of competitions to this day (not that I had never suspected corrupt judging before - remember CTV catching the foot tapping incident on camera? — or the joke that the ice dancing event was for decades — but this incident somehow seemed worse, due to the silver platter opportunity presented for clean-up and the subsequent blatant turning away from that opportunity by those at the sport's highest levels.)

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Very well said, rain. For me, the way the ISU handled the whole thing is even worse than the cheating itself, because if the cheating was the doing of a small number of individuals, the cover-up was orchestrated by a larger number of people and I've not seen many officials speaking out about it. Code of silence... This code of silence, the climate of fear is so awful and hurts the sport soooo much...
And let's not forget that when the Italian police and the FBI stated they had wiretaps about the alledged "fix" and French-Russian deal, the ISU didn't do ANYTHING, even a couple of interviews of its judges... Who knows... Maybe a new inquiry could have gone somewhere. They didn't even TRY. Some federations and some officials asked the ISU to do something at the time, but they very rapidly went quiet...

Edited to correct mysef. The ISU did something after the arrest of Mr. T. They sent letters to their members, asking for volonteer information lol...

Corruption

Don't be shocked Rain. Corruption in competitive figure skating has been present since it began. There is absolutely not one thing new about that. The issue was the result for me. It was the right one and the ISU didn't have the spine to stand behind it. The Canadians used the judging issue/corruption very effectively (to their cynical advantage I may add) to get the result they wanted. Yes, a deal was made and this judge got caught, but the truth is they have been made for years on end AND EVERYONE KNEW IT. For you, or anyone else, to suddenly be stunned by corruption in figure skating at SLC is disingenuous to me and frankly, I have little patience for the argument. Where were all of you for the past 60 yrs? The fact is it was old news and if it was serious enough to be dealt with, it should have been done before or after the Olympics in an effective manner. Sadly, the French judge said she would not have changed her scores, she felt that B&S were the legitimate winners. But because she got caught, it gave people with an agenda the ammunition they needed to overturn a legitimate decision and the right decision. In other words, punishing the judge was correct, diminishing B&S's win was not. One should not necessarily have followed the other, but it would have taken people with character to figure that out. I also believe it cost Michelle Kwan the Olympic gold but that's another discussion.

kyla - My father used to tell me that it's ok to do whatever you want, but don't get caught. I think he was right. Mme La G tried but got caught. Previous crooks got away with it. C'est la vie.

The outcome for me since the investigation was stopped because Speedy wanted to sweep it under rug as quick as possible was two gold medals. If you look at the revised score 3in favor of B&S-3 in favor of S&P. That's a tie in any sport. There is no rule in figure skating to break a tie. There is nothing one can do about that.

Move on with this topic, everyone, puhlese.:banging:

Joe

Joe

O.k. I am moving on. Please don't misunderstand me, corruption is not o.k with me.

kyla2 said:

Don't be shocked Rain. Corruption in competitive figure skating has been present since it began. There is absolutely not one thing new about that. The issue was the result for me. It was the right one and the ISU didn't have the spine to stand behind it. The Canadians used the judging issue/corruption very effectively (to their cynical advantage I may add) to get the result they wanted. Yes, a deal was made and this judge got caught, but the truth is they have been made for years on end AND EVERYONE KNEW IT. For you, or anyone else, to suddenly be stunned by corruption in figure skating at SLC is disingenuous to me and frankly, I have little patience for the argument. Where were all of you for the past 60 yrs? The fact is it was old news and if it was serious enough to be dealt with, it should have been done before or after the Olympics in an effective manner. Sadly, the French judge said she would not have changed her scores, she felt that B&S were the legitimate winners. But because she got caught, it gave people with an agenda the ammunition they needed to overturn a legitimate decision and the right decision. In other words, punishing the judge was correct, diminishing B&S's win was not. One should not necessarily have followed the other, but it would have taken people with character to figure that out. I also believe it cost Michelle Kwan the Olympic gold but that's another discussion.

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Oh, I'm not shocked by corruption in figure skating judging, as I've stated quite clearly in several posts in this thread. I am shocked by your attitude towards the whole affair.

The moment the French judge admitted she was part of a deal for the gold medals in ice dance and pairs, her scores could no longer be considered legitimate, period. Quite frankly I don't care who she said she would have given the win to. She is obviously a totally unreliable source. I find it despicable that she is allowed to continue judging the sport at all. The idea that her marks, admittedly pre-determined and bought, should stand is absurd.

I totally agree with you that the corruption should have been dealt with both before and after the Olympics. That's what I still find a little stunning, even given the history the ISU has in ignoring the bad apples. In this case there was even a criminal investigation, yet no serious attempt made by the ISU to get to the bottom of the vote-swapping. In spite of conspirators admitting to their culpability and massive public outcry, the ISU still turned a blind eye. Perhaps I'm just an eternal optimist.

Where we differ in our opinions is that I believe dealing with it during the Olympics by awarding double gold was also the right thing to do. The only fair thing given the tainted nature of the pairs results because of the conspiracy involving the French.

I am, I admit, Canadian — but in spite of the vulnerability of being accused of national bias here, I'm going to defend what the Canadians did nevertheless. You say they acted cynically to get the result — a gold medal — that they wanted. Your implication is that the people in question realized they didn't deserve it, but used a technicality to grasp it anyway. I believe in all honesty that they fought for S/P because not only did they truly believe they deserved to win that night (which I agree with, by the way, though I acknowledge there is a case for the opposite result), but because they were truly angry about the blatant corruption that took place. The only ones who diminished B/S were the federations and judges who put together a deal to buy a win for them, not trusting that their own skating performance would be enough.

oh, my mistake... plush got level 3s on his footwork.. but with many +1s on GOE... thank goodness i turned out to be mistaken on the level! he should have gotten all +3s for both.