Sasha

Piel said:

Joe they start out gradually. First with electrical stimulation the progress to the patient tightening the muscle themselves, to gradually being able to raise the leg, and then beginning with 1/2# increase the weight. This IS NOT used with joint replacment. It is very common with patellar tendon transplants, Goldwaithe procedures, Maquet patellaplasty, tibial tuberosity transplants (to restore function to the patellar tendon), meniscus, ACL.....

Just called Charleston Area Medical Center's Sports Medicine Department to check my facts.

BTW I remember a physical therapist telling me in 1971 that the then communist countries routinely used electrical stimulation on their healthy athletes in order to build stronger muscles quickly.

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Piel, 400 pounds are two tons!! I've been in physical therapy and I know if one has a problem with movements, the therapists are extremely cautious with weight. In my case it never went beyond 10 pounds and when it was complete I went to the gym on my own and increased it to 70 pounds.

For what part of the anatomy would one use 2 tons?

Steroids plus weight lifting builds big muscles. Just look at Arnold. When a young slender Gabriela Sabatini came back the next year, she was accused of using steroids. It was just the passage of girl to woman.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Piel, 400 pounds are two tons!! I've been in physical therapy and I know if one has a problem with movements, the therapists are extremely cautious with weight. In my case it never went beyond 10 pounds and when it was complete I went to the gym on my own and increased it to 70 pounds.

For what part of the anatomy would one use 2 tons?

Steroids plus weight lifting builds big muscles. Just look at Arnold. When a young slender Gabriela Sabatini came back the next year, she was accused of using steroids. It was just the passage of girl to woman.

Joe

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Sorry Joe, I have to make a correction. 2 tons is 4000 lbs.

Joe didn't you have joint replacement surgery? IIRC you did and it is a different routine than some other knee rehabs. Yesterday I went back and checked my facts with an orthopedic surgeon and the sports medicine physical therapy department. Reread Soogar's post as to the WAY the weight is lifted. Remember this is two legs. After reading your post I tried a little experiment...with my bad leg that has no kneecap and is very unstable I am able to push and pull a small trunk (30'wX20'Dx22"H) that is full of magazines. Strong quadriceps are the best way to maintain a stable knee. Women have an additional challenge because of the wider hips the femur turns in slightly making it easier for dislocation of the patella.

millie said:

Sorry Joe, I have to make a correction. 2 tons is 4000 lbs.

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Thanks Millie. I thought there was something wrong with that.

Piel - I just am not convinced that a non sporting weight lifter or non sporting body builder could handle 400 lbs in a hospital situation. In my case I didn't use weights as much as you did. My exercises were mostly bending the knees, and walking up and down stairs. We did try a 5 pound iron shoe once and it was painful and impossible. Before the surgery I did a lot of thigh building with machines which went to 70 lbs and also after surgery. My thigh muscles werealready bulging because of my skating and dancing, and while I stopped those activities I have been diligent in going to gyms with exercise equipment. Because of my quadriceps, the doctors believed I could breeze through the surgeries. Not so.

I still believe lifting 400 lbs even with both legs on a machine is near impossible unless it's a serious body builder.

I am now expecting to see Sasha with bulging quadricepts as those lady body builders.

Joe

I still believe lifting 400 lbs even with both legs on a machine is near impossible unless it's a serious body builder.

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I was thinking the same thing, actually. I was wondering how accurate that number is. Then again, who cares, really.

soogar said:

Please Rgirl,
What difference does it make if Swift got Sasha's BMI? BMI isn't accurate for athletes anyway. There are athletes that are very muscular and have low bodyfat yet have the same BMI as a 200 pound out of shape person. We all know Sasha is very thin. She has to be b/c those jumps are hard on her body. But I don't think she will stay that small weight forever. This is the thinnest she has ever been but that will change after the Olympics and Worlds. Ballet dancers have to have thin bodies. Part of it is aesthetics, and the other part is the impact that these moves have on the body. Sasha has already sustained her share of injuries. Can you give it a rest about the girl's weight?

The SI article was the best article I've ever read about Sasha, and the photo is very beautiful. On an aside, Kimmie was looking like a real babe with her hair down. I think Sasha's family situation really explains a lot of her inconsistency and coach changes. I'm very surprised that the Cohens have been able to keep their marital troubles quiet. Hopefully they can work out their issues. I think it's very hard on Sasha to know that her career drove her parents apart and she probably keeps a lot of her feelings to herself about that issue. I certainly don't blame Sasha for her parent's split b/c obviously the mother made the decision to go to the East coast with Sasha (probably in response to marital trouble, maybe b/c she enjoys living vicariously through Sasha).

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I hear ya, Soogar! I kinda made myself sick with that one, actually. What can I say? When it's your job, it gets in your blood. However, point well taken.

The last two things I'll say by way of explanation is much of what makes me so preoccupied with Sasha's body composition is my fear for female skaters, gymnasts, etc. of them possibly developing an eating disorder. But you're right; time to give it a rest and not let my experiences with clients affect or infect every thread in which Sasha's weight is mentioned.

The other thing that prompts me to harp on Sasha's weight is the change Michelle made in her body after the '02 Olympics. Check your video tapes or photos of Michelle from '01/02 season and IMO she is skinny, skinny, skinny. much like Sasha is today. I realize there are many reasons why Michelle didn't skate very well that season and her low body weight may have been a result of what she was going through rather than a cause of her subpar performances.

But what I want to emphasize is how superb Michelle looked and skated in '02/03 once she started "wearing" all that muscle. It's especially noticeable in her upper body and IMO Michelle's upper body movement, particularly in her footwork sections, is a big part of what made Michelle's skating not only finally exciting for me, but also even more exciting for her already ardent fans. Of course, that's just my response to the aesthetics.

However, objectively, upper body strength has been shown in biomechanical studies done on Viktor Petrenko doing his 3Axel in 1993 to be the biggest contributor to the success of the jump, assuming basic technique is correct. I see Sasha's thin arms of today compared to Michelle's beautifully muscled and well proportioned upper body in her most recent prime--IMO, '02/03 and '03/04--and I just get frustrated for Sasha because it's all there for her to incorporate into her training. I know; mentally it takes time for skaters to not be afraid of building "big muscles." I'm just ancy.

However, again, Soogar, you're right. My frustration should stop being the forum's annoyance. As for Sasha's body changing in the direction of Michelle's, as I interpret your comments, I think you're right. I certainly hope so for Sasha's sake. Plus, if Sasha put on some upper body muscle it would totally shut me up on that subject.

End of "Rgirl's Constant Harping on Sasha's Body Weight." Beginning of Rgirl hoping to clarify the "Can Sasha lift 400 lb. with her legs" issue. The article says: "Sasha can leg press 400 lb." The key words are "leg press," which is not the same as the "leg lift." The "leg press" is the machine in which the person is lying on her back tilted with her head down and her legs up at somewhere between a 30 and 45 degree angle. The legs are bent with the soles of the feet against a platform that is connected to the weight plates. So the person is pushing the soles of the feet against the platform, thus pushing the weight up by straightening both legs at let's say a 45 degree angle.

She is NOT doing a 400 lb. "leg lift," in which the person is sitting in a chair-like part of the machine and lifting the weight at the ankle by extending the knee through an arc of about 90 degrees. Let me know whether or not I being clear in describing the difference between the "leg press" and the "leg lift."

In the "leg press" the entire lower body and both legs are used to push the weight up at a 45 degree angle. Thus the lower back muscles, the lower abdomen, the gluteals, the quads, the hamstrings, the ab- and adductors, the gastroc-soleus group, and even the ankle and foot muscles go into pushing all that weight.

Also, relative to total body weight, women have much stronger leg muscles than men. I can't recall the average ratio offhand, but even women who don't exercise can usually "leg press" at least twice their body weight. For an athlete such as an elite figure skater, being able to "leg press" four times her body weight is excellent and commendable but by no means unbelievable. Sasha being able to "leg press" 400 lb. is just what she should be able to do, IMO. I'm sure Michelle, Irina, Shizza, all the top ladies, when uninjured and not sick, can "leg press" four times their body weights as well.

What this means to me is that Sasha has gotten really serious about her off-ice training--at least for most of her body. However, compare Sasha's upper body to Michelle's--I realize they don't weigh the same--and maybe I won't seem like a complete loon when I say I'd like to see Sasha build up the correct muscles for a figure skater in her upper body.

As for a "leg lift," the amount a person can lift with both legs is much less than on the "leg press." With the "leg lift" you're mostly only able to use the knee extensors, ie, the quads, to lift the weight. For an elite female figure skater 5'2" and 95 lb., I'd say a good amount of weight for a bilateral "leg lift" would be about 150 lb.

So good for Sasha for coming through those rocky years. With the break up of her parents' marriage, it's no wonder that John Nicks commented that Sasha wants to be in on the decision making process. Those little areas in which she can feel she has control over her life given the chaos in every divorce I've ever seen makes so much sense in that context. And so does her difficulty in making certain decisions; I read that Nicks and whoever the first choreographer they used had three pieces of music for Sasha's Olympic LP, including the Rota "Romeo and Juliet." Reportedly, time became an issue because Sasha couldn't make up her mind about which music she wanted to use. At least to me, and not trying to "psychoanalyze" Sasha at all, the indecision also makes sense in light of her parents' divorce. It's sad for the whole family. Here's to hoping they each heal through it.

And FINALLY, thank you Soogar, who wins "The Golden Give It a Rest Rgirl" trophy, which for the time being looks like this--

Rgirl, Shutting Up Now

Rgirl said:

In the "leg press" the entire lower body and both legs are used to push the weight up at a 45 degree angle. Thus the lower back muscles, the lower abdomen, the gluteals, the quads, the hamstrings, the ab- and adductors, the gastroc-soleus group, and even the ankle and foot muscles go into pushing all that weight.

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Plus, it the angle is 45 degrees you are actually lifting only 71% of the weight, and if the angle is 30 degrees, you are lifting only 50% of the weight. (I knew all that trigonometry would be good for something some day.)

MM

RG and MM- interesting.

Thanks rgirl re the leg press/leg lift. I was definitely imagining all those clients lifting 400 lbs with their legs.

The leg press makes more sense. That's also a fanny builder, too.

Joe

The other thing that prompts me to harp on Sasha's weight is the change Michelle made in her body after the '02 Olympics. Check your video tapes or photos of Michelle from '01/02 season and IMO she is skinny, skinny, skinny. much like Sasha is today. I realize there are many reasons why Michelle didn't skate very well that season and her low body weight may have been a result of what she was going through rather than a cause of her subpar performances.

But what I want to emphasize is how superb Michelle looked and skated in '02/03 once she started "wearing" all that muscle.

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Thanks, RGirl, for posting that. I'm an "older" gymnast (as my name may have clued you in to) and in regular-people clothes, I look all right. Even in the health club, I look muscular and maybe thin (not skinny). Next to the 11-year-old sticks I train & compete with in the gym, I look like a whale. I'll try to remember your post and think "muscular" and "strong" and "wearing all that muscle" next time I have to pour myself into a leotard and be seen in public.

OK, back to Sasha now.