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Pairs from TV
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
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The judging was fine except of H&P's 3r throw. Maybe coaches ought to watch this closely for all their skaters. I don't think it was intentional, just plain incompetent? Who was the Tech Asst?
I think Putnam and Wirtz are the wave of the future.
Could there be another scandal in 2010?:think:
Joe
I think Putnam and Wirtz are the wave of the future.
Could there be another scandal in 2010?:think: Joe
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Joe, I probably shouldn't cross post this as I put it in the Pair FS report and didn't see this thread, but in case anyone cares:
There are several reasons I&B score well, even with problems, against a weak field like this was:
1. Level 4 side by side spins-they are perhaps the best in the world in this category. This isn't hype-they get highest total score, next closest is O&S) Even The changes of edge as well as the rotations are perfectly matched and fast. Actually the spin is the highlight of their LP and in some ways more impressive than the throw 3A.
If you remember that none of the Chinese pairs come anywhere close to doing this level of spin and that T&M and PetTikhs chose to do a lower level, you'll realize the level of the achievement.
2. Gorgeous unison on the footwork, including going from unison to mirror unison to unison and back, done with great speed.
3. All 3 lifts are level four, going almost the entire length of the rink, 2 done one hand up and down for good measure.
4. Level 3 spiral...and John can actually get his leg up.
5. Even if Rena falls on the throw 3A, it is done after the 2 minute mark and is worth 8.33 base -2 points off for -3 GOE (yes this is daft, but that's how it works) and -1 for the fall- it's still 5.33, about the same as a WELL DONE throw 2Lp. Plus since they have landed it once in competition and a number of times in exhibitions, no one doubts that they can do it. This is key to having the caller give them the benefit of the doubt on the rotations. (And this by the way is why they are going to put it in the SP. There because there is no 'late' bonus', it's only worth a base of 7.5, so the results is 4.5, the same as a marginal throw 3Lp or a WELLDONE throw 3S
6. A back outside death spiral, done at level 4 (the extra rotation, hard entry, 2 revolutions, plus a change of pivot)
7. The sbs 2a/2a sequence is generally spot on and in unison even though the second one is done blind where John can't see Rena. A 2a/2a sequence is worth exactly the same points as a 3t2t combination, Paul Wylie to the contrary.
Finally, their speed is far superior to Putnam and Wirtz.
I might wish that John and Rena had skated as well as they did at Nationals, but I'm thrilled to hear that John landed the 3t in the SP!!
I think they are ready to do their best at Torino, although the best I hope for them there would be 6th. (And even that requires Marcoux & Buntin and Pang & Tong and Obertas/Slavnov to screw up badly)
There are several reasons I&B score well, even with problems, against a weak field like this was:
1. Level 4 side by side spins-they are perhaps the best in the world in this category. This isn't hype-they get highest total score, next closest is O&S) Even The changes of edge as well as the rotations are perfectly matched and fast. Actually the spin is the highlight of their LP and in some ways more impressive than the throw 3A.
If you remember that none of the Chinese pairs come anywhere close to doing this level of spin and that T&M and PetTikhs chose to do a lower level, you'll realize the level of the achievement.
2. Gorgeous unison on the footwork, including going from unison to mirror unison to unison and back, done with great speed.
3. All 3 lifts are level four, going almost the entire length of the rink, 2 done one hand up and down for good measure.
4. Level 3 spiral...and John can actually get his leg up.
5. Even if Rena falls on the throw 3A, it is done after the 2 minute mark and is worth 8.33 base -2 points off for -3 GOE (yes this is daft, but that's how it works) and -1 for the fall- it's still 5.33, about the same as a WELL DONE throw 2Lp. Plus since they have landed it once in competition and a number of times in exhibitions, no one doubts that they can do it. This is key to having the caller give them the benefit of the doubt on the rotations. (And this by the way is why they are going to put it in the SP. There because there is no 'late' bonus', it's only worth a base of 7.5, so the results is 4.5, the same as a marginal throw 3Lp or a WELLDONE throw 3S
6. A back outside death spiral, done at level 4 (the extra rotation, hard entry, 2 revolutions, plus a change of pivot)
7. The sbs 2a/2a sequence is generally spot on and in unison even though the second one is done blind where John can't see Rena. A 2a/2a sequence is worth exactly the same points as a 3t2t combination, Paul Wylie to the contrary.
Finally, their speed is far superior to Putnam and Wirtz.
I might wish that John and Rena had skated as well as they did at Nationals, but I'm thrilled to hear that John landed the 3t in the SP!!
I think they are ready to do their best at Torino, although the best I hope for them there would be 6th. (And even that requires Marcoux & Buntin and Pang & Tong and Obertas/Slavnov to screw up badly)
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Joesitz said:The judging was fine except of H&P's 3r throw. Maybe coaches ought to watch this closely for all their skaters. I don't think it was intentional, just plain incompetent? Who was the Tech Asst?
I think Putnam and Wirtz are the wave of the future.
Joe
Sorry it wasn't broadcast in Canada; what happened with Hinzman and Parchem's throw?
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Yes Doris - I was agog with I&B and when I get the time I will check the details of the scoring especially looking for those side by side spins. I'm hoping they get the scores they deserve in Torino, but given the tough field, that sbs triple whatever they want to do has to be perfect, otherwise, it will be reflected badly on other things (jmo).
Putnam and Wirtz, are a team in progress. they were also at Skate America and I think they were undermarked.
W&F were good this comp, but haven't they been around for some time?
Orsher and Lucash - sad because they are coming along.
Joe
Putnam and Wirtz, are a team in progress. they were also at Skate America and I think they were undermarked.
W&F were good this comp, but haven't they been around for some time?
Orsher and Lucash - sad because they are coming along.
Joe
Since I read quite negative comments overall about the pairs skating here on various skating boards, I thought the broadcast would be painful to watch. (I watched CBC in Canada). It wasn't. The pairs that were broadcast all had some mistakes, but they were still enjoyable. I think that they skated well, especially considering the altitude and its effect on endurance.
Of course, CBC didn't broadcast Langlois/Hay or Orscher/Lucash, so that might have changed my opinion.
Of course, CBC didn't broadcast Langlois/Hay or Orscher/Lucash, so that might have changed my opinion.
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Joe, You're definitely right about W&F---W&F were 8th at world's last year, and 2nd at Canadians. This year they skated knowing they could not go to Olympics, since Utako would not give up her Japanese citizenship. I didn't see the Canadian championships and wonder whether they were undergraded there in consequence.
I just got a copy of their SP at 4CC's--a very lovely program to the ubiquitous "The Swan"--they made no obvious errors, but had nothing like the speed or unison of John and Rena (who for once also made no severe errors).
Rena, of course, made the opposite choice--perhaps easier for her since she and John are engaged.
I just got a copy of their SP at 4CC's--a very lovely program to the ubiquitous "The Swan"--they made no obvious errors, but had nothing like the speed or unison of John and Rena (who for once also made no severe errors).
Rena, of course, made the opposite choice--perhaps easier for her since she and John are engaged.
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Doris - What exactly happened in the judging to H&P in the SP. I heard a snippet during the TV by Terry G but I was on the phone and didn't get the whole thing. I think I heard the Tech Asst made an error and it was rectified.
Joe
Joe
It was explained in italics at the top of this USFS article:Joesitz said:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_story.asp?id=32783
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I was glad to see there was a mechanism to correct the score if the caller makes a mistake! It's not like the days when Tim Wood lost an Olympic gold medal because someone held up the wrong number cards, said so, but it wasn't allowed to be fixed.
With respect to Wakamatsu/Fecteau at Canadians, they were not at all undergraded IMO. They were 4th in the short program, which is where they deserved to be. The three teams ahead of them (Marcoux/Buntin, Dube/Davison and Langlois/Hay) were all completely clean and very good. Wakamatsu/Fecteau had a slight error on the throw.
Wakamatsu/Fecteau had similar performances of their long program at 4CC and at Canadians, I think (although they did the 2A at Canadians). In the long program at Canadians, Wakamatsu/Fecteau had two major errors and were a bit slow. Dube/Davison were almost perfect and completely stunning. Marcoux/Buntin had errors but had much more speed and more complexity in their program. Putnam/Wirtz had only one error (hand down on a throw) and more speed, I think. So W/F ended up fourth in the long, as I think they should have, and third overall.
So, to sum up, I think they were not marked down because of their lack of Olympic eligilibity. If anyone was marked down, it was Dube/Davison.
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- Jul 31, 2003
I was disappointed in the pairs competition for several reasons.
I was glad that I&B won, even with mistakes. In this weak field they were the strongest, but will John ever land even an easy triple jump? I know he landed one at the US nationals although their unison was terrible on the jump. They cannot make mistakes like those at the Olympics. Hinzman-Parchem skated well. IIRC their only mistake was on the lift toward the end when he had to bring her down right away. I was surprised that they placed 4th overall.
I had liked Putnam & Wirtz couple years ago and I think they have come a long way. This is a pair to watch. All they need is more mileage to develop.
This is going to sound harsh, but I don't understand how Wakamatsu and Fecteau placed 2nd overall after such a sloppy performance. They made too many mistakes and even when it was not a mistake, the move appeared labored. Their bodies don't match well either. He is tall and has long limbs. She is compact, short, almost like a ball (I don't mean to put her down). She has the flexibility to create new moves but overall they skated poorly. I would have placed them way below Hinzman & Parchem.
Orscher-Lucash actually skated quite well. She did have two hands down on a throw and he fell on the sbs triple toe, but this performance was much better than at the US nationals. They should feel good about this. I hope they will continue to skate as a pair because they have potential to be very good.
This was not the best pairs competition to watch.
Vash
I was glad that I&B won, even with mistakes. In this weak field they were the strongest, but will John ever land even an easy triple jump? I know he landed one at the US nationals although their unison was terrible on the jump. They cannot make mistakes like those at the Olympics. Hinzman-Parchem skated well. IIRC their only mistake was on the lift toward the end when he had to bring her down right away. I was surprised that they placed 4th overall.
I had liked Putnam & Wirtz couple years ago and I think they have come a long way. This is a pair to watch. All they need is more mileage to develop.
This is going to sound harsh, but I don't understand how Wakamatsu and Fecteau placed 2nd overall after such a sloppy performance. They made too many mistakes and even when it was not a mistake, the move appeared labored. Their bodies don't match well either. He is tall and has long limbs. She is compact, short, almost like a ball (I don't mean to put her down). She has the flexibility to create new moves but overall they skated poorly. I would have placed them way below Hinzman & Parchem.
Orscher-Lucash actually skated quite well. She did have two hands down on a throw and he fell on the sbs triple toe, but this performance was much better than at the US nationals. They should feel good about this. I hope they will continue to skate as a pair because they have potential to be very good.
This was not the best pairs competition to watch.
Vash
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Vash, ITA that this was not a great pairs competition to watch the LP in, but the SP's were very entertaining and well skated. And John Baldwin landed his 3T in the short, which is one big reason why I&B were in first after the short. So that makes him 50/50 on 3T's, a huge improvement from their 3Lz adventures. I hope he will land both at Olympics and worlds.
However, I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to finish top 6 at Olympics. This was about as well as they can skate the SP, and the PCS they got left them with only 57.51. This is why they are swapping out the 3LpTh for a 3Ath at Olympics: nothing to lose really, and could net them an additional 2.5 points. At 60, that would put them in striking distance of top 6.
In any case, at 4CC's, the top four pairs in the short skated without major errors. (I&B, W&F, H&P, L&H). Lucash popped the 3T, which was one big reason they were in 5th. P&W fell on the f/w but were otherwise good and were 6th. 3,4,5, and 6th place were at a virtual tie.
On H&P-their problem in the SP, as in the LP, is that their skills are mostly level 1 or 2 for spins/steps/death spirals. Not surprising considering how new a pair they are. And a blown lift nets 0.0 points, which put them at a 3.5 point disadvantage to W&F right there. In fact, P&W finished ahead of them in the LP.
On O&L, they suffered from their injuries this year. Katie's early injury caused them to stay with Samson & Delilah as an LP, and while it is well choreographed, it is not a particularly great COP program. This would probably be because it was aimed at last year's nationals which was judged under 6.0. Most of the step/spin elements are level 1 or 2 for example. They also suffer from poor lifting technique, which you could definitely see in their LP--in fact, their coach is asking them in the K&S about one of the lifts. This is not only a problem for scoring, it's dangerous. I wish them every success in the future though. They are a very hard working pair.
However, I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to finish top 6 at Olympics. This was about as well as they can skate the SP, and the PCS they got left them with only 57.51. This is why they are swapping out the 3LpTh for a 3Ath at Olympics: nothing to lose really, and could net them an additional 2.5 points. At 60, that would put them in striking distance of top 6.
In any case, at 4CC's, the top four pairs in the short skated without major errors. (I&B, W&F, H&P, L&H). Lucash popped the 3T, which was one big reason they were in 5th. P&W fell on the f/w but were otherwise good and were 6th. 3,4,5, and 6th place were at a virtual tie.
On H&P-their problem in the SP, as in the LP, is that their skills are mostly level 1 or 2 for spins/steps/death spirals. Not surprising considering how new a pair they are. And a blown lift nets 0.0 points, which put them at a 3.5 point disadvantage to W&F right there. In fact, P&W finished ahead of them in the LP.
On O&L, they suffered from their injuries this year. Katie's early injury caused them to stay with Samson & Delilah as an LP, and while it is well choreographed, it is not a particularly great COP program. This would probably be because it was aimed at last year's nationals which was judged under 6.0. Most of the step/spin elements are level 1 or 2 for example. They also suffer from poor lifting technique, which you could definitely see in their LP--in fact, their coach is asking them in the K&S about one of the lifts. This is not only a problem for scoring, it's dangerous. I wish them every success in the future though. They are a very hard working pair.
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Thanks for the detailed explanation Doris. It sounds like you were in Colorado Springs to watch it live.
I still feel that I&B should not try the throw 3A in the SP. The percentage of landing it is very small. Rena lands the throw 3loop easily. It could get them a clean SP and a good chance of being in the penultimate group for the LP.
ITA about H&P. They are new and it shows in their elements. However, W&F looked extremely sloppy in the LP. Again, it is a flaw of the COP that if an element has a higher level but is executed poorly, the skater gets higher marks for it than for a well done element at a lower level.
In addition to being injured for 3 months, I heard that Katie and Garret had financial problems too for their training. Katie was teaching lower level pairs to pay for their skating expenses, but she could not do that because of her injury. That must have cost them training time also.
Vash
I still feel that I&B should not try the throw 3A in the SP. The percentage of landing it is very small. Rena lands the throw 3loop easily. It could get them a clean SP and a good chance of being in the penultimate group for the LP.
ITA about H&P. They are new and it shows in their elements. However, W&F looked extremely sloppy in the LP. Again, it is a flaw of the COP that if an element has a higher level but is executed poorly, the skater gets higher marks for it than for a well done element at a lower level.
In addition to being injured for 3 months, I heard that Katie and Garret had financial problems too for their training. Katie was teaching lower level pairs to pay for their skating expenses, but she could not do that because of her injury. That must have cost them training time also.
Vash
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I certainly hope I&B will return to the 3Lp throw at worlds, but I can see their point about using it at Olympics: at their ages, this is their only chance at a medal, no matter how much of a long shot that is...I am sure they don't want to finish 6th or 7th, skating a blinder in the long, as they did at US Nats, because they were too far behind from the SP. And it was a blinder. Almost 126, AFAIR--of course, you have to drop their PCS scores, but even so, that performance would be in the 120 pts region internationally, well within the range needed for 3rd in some scenarios. However, with 57/58 being their best can do from the SP, that would put them in the 7th to 4th region, depending on how others skate. I can see their point.
Nothing depends on Olympics but your personal satisfaction and your financial future. It doesn't determine the number of pairs at worlds or your GP assignments. Trying and failing is acceptable, but if only's are dreadful.
I can see why they would shoot the moon.
Nothing depends on Olympics but your personal satisfaction and your financial future. It doesn't determine the number of pairs at worlds or your GP assignments. Trying and failing is acceptable, but if only's are dreadful.
I can see why they would shoot the moon.
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Hi Doris. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I always appreciate your detailed and informative posts regarding pairs. I love watching pairs, and with your help along with many others here, I'm becoming more educated in my viewing. This is a great thread.
DG
DG
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Doggygirl, Thank you!!
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