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Thread: Pairs SP Thoughts or Salt Lake II

  1. #1
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    Pairs SP Thoughts or Salt Lake II

    I disagree with the judges' markings for the Pairs Short Program.

    Judge's Rankings after the Short Program:

    1. Totmianina & Marinin completed all the elements flawlessly but they skated like robots and showed absolutely no emotion. I know that emotion is not scored but it should reflect in the interpretation marks and these two do not "skate as one" but rather as two singles skaters skating on the same ice.

    2. Zhang & Zhang made so many mistakes (bad unison in all their spins, no sit positions in the "sit" spins, lots of timing issues and lack of unison, poor positions in the the death spiral, poor posture period) that I simply cannot for the life of me understand how the judges could have put them in second place.

    3. Petrova & Tikhonov have greatly improved their musicality and interpretation but he did badly under-rotate his 3-toe in the side by side 3-toes. The caller should have called it a double and the team should have only gotten credit for completing side-by-side 2-toes. If it were an American team, the caller would not have missed the under-rotated 3-toe. Bad judging. Petrova & Tikhonov do not deserve to be in 3rd place.

    4. Pang & Tong have also greatly improved their musicality and interpretation. Their throw jump was high and spectacular but their side by side jumps were not in sync and their side by side spins were totally out of unison. So, how do the judges have them so high in the standings?

    5. Shen & Zhao had far more passion and emotion than the android-like Russians Totmianina & Marinin. Shen & Zhao had wonderful musical interpretation too but they did make some glaring errors including the hand down on her 3-toe, the lack of unison in their side by side spins (a problem for all the Chinese teams) and the problems he had in the death spiral.

    6. Inoue & Baldwin were simply perfect. Here we go again (think back to Sale & Pelletier). An absolutely perfect, history making performance with passion, speed and wonderful musical interpretation is judged only sixth by the judges??????? What were they looking at?????????? Inoue and Baldwin were flawless in every element, their unison and musical interpretation were the best of any team, they had more difficulty than any other team (which was reflected in the technical score) and they should now be sitting in first place. THEY WERE ROBBED BY THE JUDGES!! Evidently (and as usual) the judges had already decided how they were going to rank these teams no matter what happened on the ice because they evidently did not see or just completely ignored the perfection of Inoue & Baldwin. The judges are manipulating the PCS scores to prop up poor performances and punish skaters that they don't like. The USFSA should file a formal protest.

    7. Savchenko & Zolkowy of Germany made one mistake but everything else they did was of the highest quality and the highest difficulty level. Their side by side 3-toes were simply awesome and they had transitions and connecting steps that many of the higher placed teams did not have. Wasn't CoP supposed to reward transitions and connecting steps????? If so, what gives????? The Germans also had the greatest musical interpretation and sense of connection one with the other of any team. They moved me almost to tears with the powerful and mesmerizing romance that they create with each other. Two shall skate as one. That's what Sale & Pelletier did in Salt Lake. That's what Savchenko & Zolkowy did in the Short Program in Torino.

    The judging has been a sham so far.

    Here is how I would have scored/ranked the teams in the Short Program:

    1. Inoue & Baldwin

    2. Totmianina & Marinin

    3. Savchenko & Zolkowy

    4. Pang & Tong

    5. Shen & Zhao

    6. Petrova & Tikhonov

    7. Zhang & Zhang

  2. #2
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    I totally agree.............It would seem that pairs is now judged like ice dancing, with the winners already pre-determined and the skaters just going through their routines to make it official.........I don't know if I would have put I and B in first, but a top three placement wouldn't have been out of line...........42

  3. #3
    Rinkside
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    Pairs short program marks

    How can a team make Olympic history doing something extremely difficult that none of the other teams can do and place 6th?

    Interesting, too, that the names of those on the judging panel are posted on none of the official websites. I suppose we are just supposed to accept every result without question under the new judging system and never suspect that judges may be using that 2nd mark to meet pre-determined objectives.

    To me, failure to publish judging panels shows arrogance and manipulation by the ISU/IOC in response to legitimate questions by the public. What we want to see is honesty and transparency!

    I'm sad for the sport - and quickly losing interest in watching something that makes my stomach churn when results are posted.

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    I would have had Inoue/Baldwin 3rd. Their only 'flaw' was to have skated a simple s-b-s jump (2 axel).

    T/M were smooth as butter, seamless, fast. Nobody cames close to them. I disagree that they are robotic; they are the most musical pair of the lot. Just as good as G&G or Valova/Vasiliev or Berezhnaia/Sikharulidze. Better than the 'roughish' Artur Dmitriev and his two partners, at those two Olympics.

    Zhangs are powerful in certain elements (throws) but rough-around-the-edges & totally uncaring about the music. Any pulsating soundtrack will do.

    Shen/Zhao are the only Chinese to register musical nuance...but their skate was very sloppy. I hope that they can make it through tonight's FS.

    p.s. I also find it AMAZINGLY IRRESPONSIBLE that the NBC networks (including USA with 'Olympic Ice') have made very little about the judging of the SP. It's almost as if *they* are in cohoots with the ISU. Or maybe it's just that Kwan's news has overshadowed the competition.
    Last edited by Frau Muller; 02-13-2006 at 11:35 AM.

  5. #5
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzzy
    How can a team make Olympic history doing something extremely difficult that none of the other teams can do and place 6th?
    Because one element (history making or otherwise) does not the best SP ever known to man make.

    Ant

  6. #6
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Honestly I do think that Inoue/Baldwin should have been no lower than 4th. 3rd place seems more than fair. I just hope that they are able to put together another clean performace ie. Nationals LP...so they can at least make it known that they mean business and could set them up wonderfully for a world medal come the Worlds.

  7. #7
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by layman
    I

    The judging has been a sham so far.

    Here is how I would have scored/ranked the teams in the Short Program:

    1. Inoue & Baldwin

    2. Totmianina & Marinin

    3. Savchenko & Zolkowy

    4. Pang & Tong

    5. Shen & Zhao

    6. Petrova & Tikhonov

    7. Zhang & Zhang
    I'm sorry but the thought of having Inoue and Baldwin first after the SP is just laughable. I didn't think they were particularly musical. they did an easier SBS jump than T&M, and while they did have good unison (especailly in the SBS spins, though not particularly in the SBS jumps) T&M have at least as goo if not better unison. I don't know what you were watching but T&M really are the class of the field in terms of unison.

    I agree T&M were robotic in terms of expression, but their speed flow and fluidity over the ice is far superior to I&B who to me looked like they were just checking off elements, the most expression they showed was in landing the throw 3A.

    I think the placings are exactly right where they fell. Perhpas there is an argument given the problems S&Z had in the SBS jump and the death spiral to put I&B ahead of them but to me the basic skatnig skills, interpretation, choregprahy and transitions were far superior to I&B and deserve to be ahead of them. They got toally dinged on tehir Death sprial anyway because despite the difficult entry and the level enhancers they put in, they neve got credit for it because he never set the pivot so not only did they get -GOE for the death spiral, it got called a level 1.

    Ant

  8. #8
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    I though I/B looked slow on TV (I know it's hard to judge and all, but I thought they looked slower than a lot of the other top teams). They've made a lot of progress over the last year or so but I wouldn't have had them higher than they placed (it breaks my heart but S/Z are too high). And let's remember that relative placement is less important than it once was, the top six or seven teams all have realistic medal shots.

    I'm not sure what it is that T/M lack, they're technically the best in so many ways (despite their well known weaknesses), I just don't ... like .... watching ..... them .... I don't dislike them (that would make them less boring) there's just no there there somehow. They've even got potentially compelling backstories now, the fall, her sickness but still nothing clicks.

  9. #9
    A. Y. & E. P.: Tzars Of The Ice, Lords Of The Rink anya_angie's Avatar
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    Nice to see I'm not the only one who thinks I&B deserved 4th or 5th. The throw 3ax was great, but everything else was blah. I didn't understand the musical timing either.

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    I'm only saddened that NBC & USA (Olympic Ice) aren't making a big deal about this. Perhaps they were too busy following Michelle Kwan to give more time to the analysis of the pairs SPs.

  11. #11
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Well, I dearly love I&B, and am so glad they skated a great performance, but I wouldn't have put them first. However, I would have had them ahead of Pang and Tong. Which would make it 4th, and a chance to skate in the last group. I found Pang & Tong's PCS way too high.

    It's worth remembering that there is very, very little expanse of points between 2nd and 8th, so in some respects what we're arguing about here is in the numerical noise, other than the tendency of the judges to use the PCS scores as place holders.

    Oh...and I& B deserve at least as high PCS scores as O&S, now in 8th. If they had that (29 or so instead of 25.5 or so, the would be in 3rd or 4th. But they don't get them. It doesn't matter how they skate. They have been getting much the same PCS scores whether they skate badly, as in the 4C's long, or very well, as in the 4C's short., I'd have their transitions where they are now, but their skating skills, performance and execution higher than they are now. Choreo I don't feel qualified to judge, but I probably would leave it about where it is now.

  12. #12
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    I&B skate slower than the top pairs and that hurts them. They did sbs 2A (not triple toes or triple salchows) so they had less points there. They did not have difficult choreography to match -for example- T&M's. They skated fairly early and that hurt them some. All these things added up into a lower overall score. The throw 3A was amazing but COP only awards a certain number of points for it. I would have placed them a little higher but definitely not in the top 3.

    S&S are still developing as a pair. They had some glitches in their SP and they deserved the 7th place.

    The two Chinese pairs P&T and Z&Z were slightly overmarked, so were S&Z who were clearly rusty and made several mistakes.

    T&M had the perfect skate of the night and they deserved first place. There are no marks for contorting facial muscles or appearing emotional while skating.T&M have a more subtle emotion- a connection with each other- not romantic but more like a friend, a partner. I find it quite pleasing.

    Vash

    Vash

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    I think Inoeu & Baldwin might have been 4th or 5th but that's about it. S&Z made mistakes but were probably given points for 'passion' or whatever you want to call it, plus they are the world champions and their moves are just a bit bigger than the other pairs. The Russians T&M were a bit boring but she is a really beautiful skater.

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