misc PAIRS grumblings

Ptichka said:

They are attacked in the West for not having the emotions of former Russian pairs, and they are seen as outsiders at home. To me, Tanya looked quite miserable even on the podium.

Click to expand...

TT/MM looked extrememly happy & proud to be Olympic Gold Medalists, this morning on the TODAY Show, when they were interviewed by Katie Couric.

Had NBC chosen to show the entire DRAMA of the warm-up -- as was shown on Eurosport, which I followed in 'real time' yesterday, via audio only...so I only heard & didn't see -- then we would have seen for ourselves how the Zhangs 'tracked' TT/MM on the ice, not allowing them to complete a single practice throw. It was highly reported in Europe. It was a big deal. I will translate some Russian articles later.

Needless to say, Tatyana had NO OBLIGATION to be phoney and to hug Ms Zhang.

EMMA - I was referring to NBC not showing O/S yesterday...their chosing not to make an issue of something that was a major issue during the Eurosport coverage yesterday -- that O/S made numerous errors inthe LP, yet received much higher marks than the Poles. Perhaps if Zagorska/Siudek skated for Team USA, NBC would have chosen to cover that story??? SHAME on NBC's selective reporting...as if intelligent fans don't know what has REALLY happened on Olympic Ice, a few hours prior to NBC's phoney selective coverage.

Frau Muller said:

TT/MM looked extrememly happy & proud to be Olympic Gold Medalists, this morning on the TODAY Show, when they were interviewed by Katie Couric.

Had NBC chosen to show the entire DRAMA of the warm-up -- as was shown on Eurosport, which I followed in 'real time' yesterday, via audio only...so I only heard & didn't see -- then we would have seen for ourselves how the Zhangs 'tracked' TT/MM on the ice, not allowing them to complete a single practice throw. It was highly reported in Europe. It was a big deal. I will translate some Russian articles later.

Needless to say, Tatyana had NO OBLIGATION to be phoney and to hug Ms Zhang.

EMMA - I was referring to NBC not showing O/S yesterday...their chosing not to make an issue of something that was a major issue during the Eurosport coverage yesterday -- that O/S made numerous errors inthe LP, yet received much higher marks than the Poles. Perhaps if Zagorska/Siudek skated for Team USA, NBC would have chosen to cover that story??? SHAME on NBC's selective reporting...as if intelligent fans don't know what has REALLY happened on Olympic Ice, a few hours prior to NBC's phoney selective coverage.

Click to expand...

So you think they did it in purpous?

Frau Muller said:

Had NBC chosen to show the entire DRAMA of the warm-up -- as was shown on Eurosport, which I followed in 'real time' yesterday, via audio only...so I only heard & didn't see -- then we would have seen for ourselves how the Zhangs 'tracked' TT/MM on the ice, not allowing them to complete a single practice throw.

Click to expand...

I think that's somewhat of an exaggeration since the certainly did complete a practice throw - i saw T&M warm up their throw triple salchow with no problem...going round the corner near centre ice first doing the double and then doing a triple....i was watching british Eurosport and don't recall the commentators saying anything bout the warm up...i may have been not paying attention, i'll go back and check but i don't recall any comment and i did see thrown jumps landed.

Ant

antmanb said:

I think that's somewhat of an exaggeration since the certainly did complete a practice throw - i saw T&M warm up their throw triple salchow with no problem...going round the corner near centre ice first doing the double and then doing a triple....i was watching british Eurosport and don't recall the commentators saying anything bout the warm up...i may have been not paying attention, i'll go back and check but i don't recall any comment and i did see thrown jumps landed.

Ant

Click to expand...

I must agree with antmanb. I saw the whole thing live and didn't notice anything. They also zoomed in a couple of times when T&M did throws and stuff like that. I think that they're kinda overreacting.

Even if Z/Z were intimidating (I'm not convinced, but for the sake of argument) T/M then she chose a poor way to handle it. A private word (or three or four) out of camera range would suffice, especially since Zhang just nearly maimed herself. Had Z/Z been clean then chilly behavior in public might be called for but it wasn't for in the circumstances last night.

Compare the Cohen/Kwan warm up incident a few years ago ....

Frau Muller said:

Tatiana Totmianina is absolutely correct -- a polite handshake of Ms Zhang is all that was required at the podium. BRAVA, Tanya!!! YOU & MAX ARE THE OLYMPIC CHAMPS, despite being barely able to warm-up because of the Zhangs' intimidating tactics! URRAHH!!!!

Little Miss Zhang should learn to be more gracious and sportsmanlike on the warm-up ice.

SHAME to NBC for minimizing this incident. This is the first time in recent memory that the network covering Olympics has chosen to not show the warm-up of the final group of skater....Very interesting, ehhh???? Ditto --- SHAME to NBC for chosing to not report on Obertas/Slavnov's skate & its incorrect marking by the judges (in relation to Zagorska/Siudek's fabulous skate, which earned lower marks). NBC has a case of 'selective reporting.' More important to show replays of Flying Tomato or repeats of boring fluffs. :chorus:

Click to expand...

nothing worst than a sore winner...

Ptichka said:

I actually felt extremely sad for T&M. I do like their skating, but it seems that everyone is always attacking them. They are attacked in the West for not having the emotions of former Russian pairs, and they are seen as outsiders at home. To me, Tanya looked quite miserable even on the podium.

Click to expand...

Tanya and Max looked extremely happy when they were giving interviews for Russian TV. And I guess now (finally) they are really loved in Russia.

WeirsAngel said:

I must agree with antmanb. I saw the whole thing live and didn't notice anything. They also zoomed in a couple of times when T&M did throws and stuff like that. I think that they're kinda overreacting.

Click to expand...

Incidentally did you see that horrible fall Pang & Tong had on the throw triple loop wih only a minute or two left in the warm up? It looked painful and she had to shake herself out after it...i held my breath when they set it up in the LP but she landed it without any problems! I thin kits amazing when skaters take big nasty falls in the warm up and then go out and nail their elements in the program.

I'm reminded of Robin cousins commentary on the 1998 Nagano Olympics - for both SP and LP he noted that Tara had not managed to warm up the triple lutz but she landed everyone in the programs.

I think it was at the same competition where he commented as Lulu landed her SP triple lutz "and that's the first one she's landed today" apparently she'd struggled with the jump in the morning practice.

Ant

Shanti said:

Tanya and Max looked extremely happy when they were giving interviews for Russian TV. And I guess now (finally) they are really loved in Russia.

Click to expand...

Glad to hear it. Perhaps last night it just hasn't sunk in yet.

soogar said:

My thoughts on pairs:

While coach Yao has been able to replicate the Soviet model of creating pairs, he has not been able to replicate the quality of the pairs that came out of the Soviet Union. I hope Russia will step it up and put some money into pairs because they will lose the title the next Olympics. Maybe Vassiliev will take on a top junior team and help to mold them. He has done an excellent job with T&M.

Click to expand...

I have to agree w/ u there.
While the Chinese have the wow factor moves, their positions and skating are not as polished as T/M. Hence the quality of their spins, footwork and and such are not as good as the Russians.

I}m not a fan of T/M because they do have this cold/stoic/detached quality to their skating. They don't really relate to each other or the audience.

They do deserve the gold though, because no one else really stepped up to challenge them.

I originally posted this in the PAIRS live thread, but thought it belonged here:

T/M totally deserved to win, however, it may be the least memorable Olympic Gold skate in recent years, at least IMO. Don't get me wrong, it was skated well - it just lacked that certain something to make it great. This pair just never has learned to share a skate with the audience.

While I have the utmost respect for Z/Z and Shen/Z for competing under such difficult circumstances, I felt neither deserved to finish ahead of Pang/Tong - in spite of the fact that I don't love P/T's choreography or music choice. I simply felt they had the second best free skate here and deserved to finish on the second step of the podium.

I actually couldn't believe Obertas and Slavnov stayed in the top 10 with their dreadful skate. To put things in perspective, yes, I did see the top 10 - in fact between CBC and French CBC I saw the entire field. This team totally highlighted the weaknesses of COP in pairs right now. They skated horribly. There was no speed, no musicality, no grace, no precision with bad choreography. Almost every single element they did, they did badly. All of their lifts were terrible and looked as if they were about to come down at any minute. However, under COP they had shoved enough difficult elements in - no matter how badly they performed all of them - to pull out enough points to stay top 10. The overall mess that was the program didn't seem to matter enough. In my mind, both D/D and Zag/Sui did enough that they should have finished ahead.

On a less specific note, I found the clutter added to many of the elements in the quest for COP points to be extremely ugly. The many ladies who did the shoot-the-duck position going into the death spirals, for example. I can count on one hand the number of actually beautiful death spirals there were in this final. Pairs spins (not to mention the side by side spins) is another area that needs significant work by almost all of the teams.

What really got me was the lack of coherent programs I saw. Almost all of them were a series of elements with some music playing in the background. It significantly lessened by enjoyment of this competition.

On a positive note - yea to D/D for an impressive 10th place finish in their first significant senior international. This team has it all to move up quickly. I fully expect them to be top 5 in the coming years on a regular basis (many of the current top teams I expect to retire after this comp.)

This is a repeat from another thread because I didn't see this one

I haven'twatched my tape yet but I did see the last few skaters:

Pt/Tk whom I felt a bit sorry for because they really have been coming along quite well with their presentation. Sorry again that they retire medalless.

Didn't see S&Z but from their SP I thought they skated a routine without much practice. Very sad for them.

Zhang and Zhang - Whoa that fall. Not easy to continue but she did!!! I think they got extra points for that. The standing ovation perks up the judges.

The most improved Pairs is Pang and Tong. She has come a long way from just being someone to toss around in the air. They had quite a rapport with each other and with the audience, too. The wave of the future?

T&M have never been of any interest to me (sorry T&M fans) and they continue to be of no interest. That slow cautious approach to everything just isn't skating with my requirement of a joie de vivre. It can win medals, though, and I definitely believe they deserved the gold. Their calculated precision technical is very special. (aside: Sasha has a much better R&J with an invisible R)

JMO - Joe
__________________

Pang/Tong were so robbed it was a disgrace. There is no way on earth either Shen/Zhou or Zhang/Zhang deserved to beat them. Zhang/Zhang were so gifted it was equaly a disagrace, there is no way on earth either Pang/Tong or Shen/Zhou should have been below them. This should have been the final results:

1)Totmianina/Marinin
2)Pang/Tong
3)Shen/Zhou
4)Zhang and Zhang and 5)Petova/Tikhonov
or
4)Petrova/Tikhonov and 5)Zhang/Zhang
6)Savchenko/Szokowlsky and 7)Inoue/Baldwin
or
6)Inoue/Baldwin and 7)Savchenko/Swokowlsky

Frau Muller said:

Tatiana Totmianina is absolutely correct -- a polite handshake of Ms Zhang is all that was required at the podium. BRAVA, Tanya!!! YOU & MAX ARE THE OLYMPIC CHAMPS, despite being barely able to warm-up because of the Zhangs' intimidating tactics! URRAHH!!!!

Little Miss Zhang should learn to be more gracious and sportsmanlike on the warm-up ice.

SHAME to NBC for minimizing this incident. This is the first time in recent memory that the network covering Olympics has chosen to not show the warm-up of the final group of skater....Very interesting, ehhh???? Ditto --- SHAME to NBC for chosing to not report on Obertas/Slavnov's skate & its incorrect marking by the judges (in relation to Zagorska/Siudek's fabulous skate, which earned lower marks). NBC has a case of 'selective reporting.' More important to show replays of Flying Tomato or repeats of boring fluffs. :chorus:

Click to expand...

I watched the video of their warm-up over at least three times and the only place I could see them stand in their way was when Dan Zhang was doing an axel jump and Tatiana just happened to skate beside her so she couldn't jump her toeloop. Agressive? oh no darling, you gotta start think before you say stuff like that.

Misc Pair Gumblings

Pairs was once my favorite venue. I enjoyed the beautiful lifts and the suspense, energy and beauty. Not to take away from their Olympic Gold medal but I find T & M to be uninspired and rather boring. Although they delivered a somewhat clean, fluid program, I also felt it was cold and calculated and they really didn't connect to each other or the audience. At least the Chinese have some spark and interest in their skating and programs but; of course, they have their flaws.

As far as I'm concerned, gone are the days of outstanding pair skating. I don't know what caused this change. Even Russia seems unable to deliver the outstanding pairs they once were spitting out of the system. I wonder if the talent pool has been tapped and it will be just a matter of time before another group of talent surfaces? I hope so.

Dizzy

My no teknik thoughts....

I was so impressed after watching the short programs. I thought the depth of really good skates (in general, not comparing to past great skaters) was quite good down into the "past the top 10" ranks. I watched the earlier groups of skaters (for the most part, the ones not televised) via CCTV yesterday afternoon, and was thinking HOLY COW this is going to be AWESOME by the time we get to the top six!!

While I realize that the top tier skaters have more prowess on the ice in many ways than the lower tier skaters, I was still a bit disappointed (selfishly speaking) in how things went at the top.

I realize there are differing opinions in general about how much any particular person is "moved" by any particular team. I thought T/M deserved the win, although I don't think it was their best all out LP ever (cautious).

I am generally in favor of COP, while recognizing that the system can be improved, and hopefully will be improved over time. I feel very sorry for the hard fall that the Zhangs took (her, of course) and admire her inner strength that kept her going. BUT...I think there is something wrong with a system (or the way it's being implemented especially on the PCS side) where a program can be disrupted to THAT degree, and still be a medal winning program over other decent skates. I am also thinking about the situation from 4CC involving a hard fall from Oda, where he somehow managed to finish the program and hit the tech elements, but (understandably) took long pauses during the program where he seemed dazed (and probably was dazed).

I'm seeking other opinions - I'm not saying mine is the only one, or the "right" one.

1) Should a skater/couple be allowed to have their music stop for that length of time, then start again after a long break, then pick up the program and still get technical credit for the elements at that point? Or would it be more "fair" on the TES side to keep the music rolling, and if the skater/couple is able to pick up at some point before the end of the program, get credit for only what they can do once they re-group? (without the benefit of a big "time out.")

2) I haven't seen the detailed protocols yet, but total PCS for the Zhangs was just over 59 points. I can't imagine how performance / execution, interpretation, and maybe even choreography could be high enough under the circumstances to warrant a total of 59 with such a huge break in the program.

Don't get me wrong - I give the Zhangs and any skater/team who has the courage and fortitude to carry on after a bad fall a ton of credit. But I'm really questioning the fairness of the very long break (which I think was also allowed under 6.0?? if so, that's not a new problem) and the PCS scoring.

DG

antmanb said:

T&M i think outclassed every pair out there, their fluidity of movement and unison was untouchable - not another pair on teh ice had the unisons they had. I'm not usually moved by their programs at all but i loved their music choices for this season and i loved the way she was grinning at him inanely every time they made eye contact after the last throw was landed...the best was the grin she flashed him as she went down into the shoot the duck for the finl death spiral.

Ant

Click to expand...

i'm totally agree with you...ok chinese pairs have great technics but i don't find their routines interesting, i don't think they skate artistically, except S/Z. but TT/MM have both technic (they skated 2 flawless programm!) and great artistry on the ice. it's not only a jumping contest, so TT/MM deserved it more than everybody!
and i think if S/Z were healthy, the result wouldn't have changed.and if Zhang landed the quad, the result would be the same again....
i also realized the eye contact between them...tatiana looked at him in such a beautiful way after an element. they skated with great excitement after they landed all jumps and looked at each other like saying we're the champions!

zeytin

What's with this new death spiral position where the man deliberately turns away from his partner and looks off into the distance. Is this some kind of "change of position" that gets you an extra tenth of a point in the NJS.?

Frau Muller said:

...so I only heard & didn't see -- then we would have seen for ourselves how the Zhangs 'tracked' TT/MM on the ice, not allowing them to complete a single practice throw. It was highly reported in Europe. It was a big deal. I will translate some Russian articles later.

Needless to say, Tatyana had NO OBLIGATION to be phoney and to hug Ms Zhang.

Click to expand...

I did not see that, but that is terrable. Perhaps Ms. Zhang exagerrated her injury somewhat to gain some pity marks too. Even my admiration for her incredable courage and heart is diminished after reading your story on the warmup, since it brings her credability into question. She sounds like a real snake, amazing at 20she already knows how to be a manipulative snake to get what she wants.

Mathman said:

What's with this new death spiral position where the man deliberately turns away from his partner and looks off into the distance. Is this some kind of "change of position" that gets you an extra tenth of a point in the NJS.?

Click to expand...

Yes I wondered about this as well. I think it looks awful, but besides that the man is not in the pivot position required in the death spiral, so I can only imagine it counts as some kind of entrance/exit, though I could be wrong.

My other complaint about the death spirals - the shoot the duck position the ladies were hitting before going down. It is neither pretty nor elegant, only ungainly. It should be a deduction, not something that gets extra points, IMO.

I thought the death spirals in general were poor at this competition. Many of the ladies seemed incapable of getting low enough to the ice. Remedial training seems in order.