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Thread: misc PAIRS grumblings

  1. #31
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    I originally posted this in the PAIRS live thread, but thought it belonged here:

    T/M totally deserved to win, however, it may be the least memorable Olympic Gold skate in recent years, at least IMO. Don't get me wrong, it was skated well - it just lacked that certain something to make it great. This pair just never has learned to share a skate with the audience.

    While I have the utmost respect for Z/Z and Shen/Z for competing under such difficult circumstances, I felt neither deserved to finish ahead of Pang/Tong - in spite of the fact that I don't love P/T's choreography or music choice. I simply felt they had the second best free skate here and deserved to finish on the second step of the podium.

    I actually couldn't believe Obertas and Slavnov stayed in the top 10 with their dreadful skate. To put things in perspective, yes, I did see the top 10 - in fact between CBC and French CBC I saw the entire field. This team totally highlighted the weaknesses of COP in pairs right now. They skated horribly. There was no speed, no musicality, no grace, no precision with bad choreography. Almost every single element they did, they did badly. All of their lifts were terrible and looked as if they were about to come down at any minute. However, under COP they had shoved enough difficult elements in - no matter how badly they performed all of them - to pull out enough points to stay top 10. The overall mess that was the program didn't seem to matter enough. In my mind, both D/D and Zag/Sui did enough that they should have finished ahead.

    On a less specific note, I found the clutter added to many of the elements in the quest for COP points to be extremely ugly. The many ladies who did the shoot-the-duck position going into the death spirals, for example. I can count on one hand the number of actually beautiful death spirals there were in this final. Pairs spins (not to mention the side by side spins) is another area that needs significant work by almost all of the teams.

    What really got me was the lack of coherent programs I saw. Almost all of them were a series of elements with some music playing in the background. It significantly lessened by enjoyment of this competition.

    On a positive note - yea to D/D for an impressive 10th place finish in their first significant senior international. This team has it all to move up quickly. I fully expect them to be top 5 in the coming years on a regular basis (many of the current top teams I expect to retire after this comp.)

  2. #32
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    This is a repeat from another thread because I didn't see this one

    I haven'twatched my tape yet but I did see the last few skaters:

    Pt/Tk whom I felt a bit sorry for because they really have been coming along quite well with their presentation. Sorry again that they retire medalless.

    Didn't see S&Z but from their SP I thought they skated a routine without much practice. Very sad for them.

    Zhang and Zhang - Whoa that fall. Not easy to continue but she did!!! I think they got extra points for that. The standing ovation perks up the judges.

    The most improved Pairs is Pang and Tong. She has come a long way from just being someone to toss around in the air. They had quite a rapport with each other and with the audience, too. The wave of the future?

    T&M have never been of any interest to me (sorry T&M fans) and they continue to be of no interest. That slow cautious approach to everything just isn't skating with my requirement of a joie de vivre. It can win medals, though, and I definitely believe they deserved the gold. Their calculated precision technical is very special. (aside: Sasha has a much better R&J with an invisible R)

    JMO - Joe
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  3. #33
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    Pang/Tong were so robbed it was a disgrace. There is no way on earth either Shen/Zhou or Zhang/Zhang deserved to beat them. Zhang/Zhang were so gifted it was equaly a disagrace, there is no way on earth either Pang/Tong or Shen/Zhou should have been below them. This should have been the final results:

    1)Totmianina/Marinin
    2)Pang/Tong
    3)Shen/Zhou
    4)Zhang and Zhang and 5)Petova/Tikhonov
    or
    4)Petrova/Tikhonov and 5)Zhang/Zhang
    6)Savchenko/Szokowlsky and 7)Inoue/Baldwin
    or
    6)Inoue/Baldwin and 7)Savchenko/Swokowlsky

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller
    Tatiana Totmianina is absolutely correct -- a polite handshake of Ms Zhang is all that was required at the podium. BRAVA, Tanya!!! YOU & MAX ARE THE OLYMPIC CHAMPS, despite being barely able to warm-up because of the Zhangs' intimidating tactics! URRAHH!!!!

    Little Miss Zhang should learn to be more gracious and sportsmanlike on the warm-up ice.

    SHAME to NBC for minimizing this incident. This is the first time in recent memory that the network covering Olympics has chosen to not show the warm-up of the final group of skater....Very interesting, ehhh???? Ditto --- SHAME to NBC for chosing to not report on Obertas/Slavnov's skate & its incorrect marking by the judges (in relation to Zagorska/Siudek's fabulous skate, which earned lower marks). NBC has a case of 'selective reporting.' More important to show replays of Flying Tomato or repeats of boring fluffs. :chorus:
    I watched the video of their warm-up over at least three times and the only place I could see them stand in their way was when Dan Zhang was doing an axel jump and Tatiana just happened to skate beside her so she couldn't jump her toeloop. Agressive? oh no darling, you gotta start think before you say stuff like that.

  5. #35
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    Misc Pair Gumblings

    Pairs was once my favorite venue. I enjoyed the beautiful lifts and the suspense, energy and beauty. Not to take away from their Olympic Gold medal but I find T & M to be uninspired and rather boring. Although they delivered a somewhat clean, fluid program, I also felt it was cold and calculated and they really didn't connect to each other or the audience. At least the Chinese have some spark and interest in their skating and programs but; of course, they have their flaws.

    As far as I'm concerned, gone are the days of outstanding pair skating. I don't know what caused this change. Even Russia seems unable to deliver the outstanding pairs they once were spitting out of the system. I wonder if the talent pool has been tapped and it will be just a matter of time before another group of talent surfaces? I hope so.

    Dizzy

  6. #36
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    My no teknik thoughts....

    I was so impressed after watching the short programs. I thought the depth of really good skates (in general, not comparing to past great skaters) was quite good down into the "past the top 10" ranks. I watched the earlier groups of skaters (for the most part, the ones not televised) via CCTV yesterday afternoon, and was thinking HOLY COW this is going to be AWESOME by the time we get to the top six!!

    While I realize that the top tier skaters have more prowess on the ice in many ways than the lower tier skaters, I was still a bit disappointed (selfishly speaking) in how things went at the top.

    I realize there are differing opinions in general about how much any particular person is "moved" by any particular team. I thought T/M deserved the win, although I don't think it was their best all out LP ever (cautious).

    I am generally in favor of COP, while recognizing that the system can be improved, and hopefully will be improved over time. I feel very sorry for the hard fall that the Zhangs took (her, of course) and admire her inner strength that kept her going. BUT...I think there is something wrong with a system (or the way it's being implemented especially on the PCS side) where a program can be disrupted to THAT degree, and still be a medal winning program over other decent skates. I am also thinking about the situation from 4CC involving a hard fall from Oda, where he somehow managed to finish the program and hit the tech elements, but (understandably) took long pauses during the program where he seemed dazed (and probably was dazed).

    I'm seeking other opinions - I'm not saying mine is the only one, or the "right" one.

    1) Should a skater/couple be allowed to have their music stop for that length of time, then start again after a long break, then pick up the program and still get technical credit for the elements at that point? Or would it be more "fair" on the TES side to keep the music rolling, and if the skater/couple is able to pick up at some point before the end of the program, get credit for only what they can do once they re-group? (without the benefit of a big "time out.")

    2) I haven't seen the detailed protocols yet, but total PCS for the Zhangs was just over 59 points. I can't imagine how performance / execution, interpretation, and maybe even choreography could be high enough under the circumstances to warrant a total of 59 with such a huge break in the program.

    Don't get me wrong - I give the Zhangs and any skater/team who has the courage and fortitude to carry on after a bad fall a ton of credit. But I'm really questioning the fairness of the very long break (which I think was also allowed under 6.0?? if so, that's not a new problem) and the PCS scoring.

    DG

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb

    T&M i think outclassed every pair out there, their fluidity of movement and unison was untouchable - not another pair on teh ice had the unisons they had. I'm not usually moved by their programs at all but i loved their music choices for this season and i loved the way she was grinning at him inanely every time they made eye contact after the last throw was landed...the best was the grin she flashed him as she went down into the shoot the duck for the finl death spiral.

    Ant
    i'm totally agree with you...ok chinese pairs have great technics but i don't find their routines interesting, i don't think they skate artistically, except S/Z. but TT/MM have both technic (they skated 2 flawless programm!) and great artistry on the ice. it's not only a jumping contest, so TT/MM deserved it more than everybody!
    and i think if S/Z were healthy, the result wouldn't have changed.and if Zhang landed the quad, the result would be the same again....
    i also realized the eye contact between them...tatiana looked at him in such a beautiful way after an element. they skated with great excitement after they landed all jumps and looked at each other like saying we're the champions!

    zeytin

  8. #38
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    What's with this new death spiral position where the man deliberately turns away from his partner and looks off into the distance. Is this some kind of "change of position" that gets you an extra tenth of a point in the NJS.?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller
    ...so I only heard & didn't see -- then we would have seen for ourselves how the Zhangs 'tracked' TT/MM on the ice, not allowing them to complete a single practice throw. It was highly reported in Europe. It was a big deal. I will translate some Russian articles later.

    Needless to say, Tatyana had NO OBLIGATION to be phoney and to hug Ms Zhang.
    I did not see that, but that is terrable. Perhaps Ms. Zhang exagerrated her injury somewhat to gain some pity marks too. Even my admiration for her incredable courage and heart is diminished after reading your story on the warmup, since it brings her credability into question. She sounds like a real snake, amazing at 20she already knows how to be a manipulative snake to get what she wants.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    What's with this new death spiral position where the man deliberately turns away from his partner and looks off into the distance. Is this some kind of "change of position" that gets you an extra tenth of a point in the NJS.?
    Yes I wondered about this as well. I think it looks awful, but besides that the man is not in the pivot position required in the death spiral, so I can only imagine it counts as some kind of entrance/exit, though I could be wrong.

    My other complaint about the death spirals - the shoot the duck position the ladies were hitting before going down. It is neither pretty nor elegant, only ungainly. It should be a deduction, not something that gets extra points, IMO.

    I thought the death spirals in general were poor at this competition. Many of the ladies seemed incapable of getting low enough to the ice. Remedial training seems in order.

  11. #41
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    Perhaps Ms. Zhang exagerrated her injury somewhat to gain some pity marks too.
    Maybe she's mean to kittens too. Or maybe you should stop taking those gullible pills. A couple of people have watched the televised warm up and saw no evidence of Z/Z bulldogging T/M.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by soogar
    My thoughts on pairs:
    Pang and Tong did the most impossible, impressive technical feat of the Chinese pairs: PERFECT side by side spins with numerous changes of postion. WOW. As far as I am concerned , that is more impressive than any of those big throws and twists b.c the Chinese pairs have no clue how to stay in unison on spins. I'm not technic for pairs, but I thought their performance should have been good enough for a medal.
    The judges and I agree
    T&M
    Spiral Step Sequence 4 3.97
    Fly. Change Foot Comb. Spin 3 3.64

    P&T
    Spiral Step Sequence 4 4.11
    Fly.Change Foot Comb. Spin 4 3.79

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rain
    Yes I wondered about this as well. I think it looks awful, but besides that the man is not in the pivot position required in the death spiral, so I can only imagine it counts as some kind of entrance/exit, though I could be wrong.

    My other complaint about the death spirals - the shoot the duck position the ladies were hitting before going down. It is neither pretty nor elegant, only ungainly. It should be a deduction, not something that gets extra points, IMO.

    I thought the death spirals in general were poor at this competition. Many of the ladies seemed incapable of getting low enough to the ice. Remedial training seems in order.
    ITA on all three counts.

  14. #44
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    am generally in favor of COP, while recognizing that the system can be improved, and hopefully will be improved over time. I feel very sorry for the hard fall that the Zhangs took (her, of course) and admire her inner strength that kept her going. BUT...I think there is something wrong with a system (or the way it's being implemented especially on the PCS side) where a program can be disrupted to THAT degree, and still be a medal winning program over other decent skates. I am also thinking about the situation from 4CC involving a hard fall from Oda, where he somehow managed to finish the program and hit the tech elements, but (understandably) took long pauses during the program where he seemed dazed (and probably was dazed).
    ITA with what you are saying.

    It seems there is a rule that states a competitor has two minutes to resume skating after an injury stoppage. Zhang took 4 minutes. A quote in the paper from coach Oleg Vasilev said "they broke the rules". However the ISU disagreed saying indeed skaters have two minutes to resume skating.....but the two minutes starts only after the event referee determines the skaters can continue. So conceibably the referee could wait a few minutes or a few hours or perhaps a day or two to decide that the competitors can continue, then the two minutes start counting down.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlkksk8fan
    ITA with what you are saying.

    It seems there is a rule that states a competitor has two minutes to resume skating after an injury stoppage. Zhang took 4 minutes. A quote in the paper from coach Oleg Vasilev said "they broke the rules". However the ISU disagreed saying indeed skaters have two minutes to resume skating.....but the two minutes starts only after the event referee determines the skaters can continue. So conceibably the referee could wait a few minutes or a few hours or perhaps a day or two to decide that the competitors can continue, then the two minutes start counting down.
    I don't think that the Zhangs should have been allowed to resume from the point of the fall. That kind of fall, had she gotten up from it and resumed skating would have taken a chunk of their program out. No way would they have been able to regroup in time to hit all the other elements in their program. The only pair who was robbed was Pang and Tong, but I feel bad for them because P&T were the only Chinese pairs team who demonstrated decent pairs moves (SBS spins, death spiral, arabesque). Then again I am no teknik so can't tell you anything about lifts.

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