Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 77

Thread: misc PAIRS grumblings

  1. #61
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    in line with DG's questioning the length of time for Z&Z to continue has come up from several of my friends who happen to be casual fans.

    I hd trouble answering it with the referee's ok. Can anyone explain this?

    Joe
    From Ice Skating International: Online

    www.iceskatingintnl.com/

    "The performance of Zhang & Zhang in the Pairs Free Skate was one of the most courageous performances we have seen in a long time and is a testament to the Olympic spirit. The situation, however, was questionably handled by the Referee. Should a deduction for an interruption been taken? (One was not.) Should the team have been disqualified? (They were not.)

    This situation is the second example in less than a month of the ambiguity and uncertainty in the handling of the interruption deduction; the first being the Oda Free Skate at Four Continents. The time from the fall until the music was stopped (we assume by the Referee) surely must be considered an interruption. Was it 11 seconds or more? Did anyone time it? Zhang & Zhang's margin of victory for the silver was nearly 3 points, so even if a deduction was appropriate it would not have changed the results. Nevertheless, does anyone in the ISU know what the definition of an interruption is? Is anyone timing this, or even paying attention to what is going on? It appears not.

    Then there is the handling of the restart. After the referee stops the clock and talks to the skaters, the skaters have 2 minutes to restart their program from the point of interruption. The referee is supposed to blow a whistle. The Referee is supposed to call the skaters over and talk to them about what will happen next. Someone is supposed to time the 2 minutes. The announcer usually is told to announce what it the decision on the restart. None of this happened. The music stopped. There was a delay. Then after a while the music started again. If the time from the stopping of the music to the restart exceeded 2 minutes the team should have been disqualified. The exact official timing of the stoppage is unknown at this point, but the time stamp on photos taken during the event show at least 2 1/2 minutes from the time Hao helped Dan up off the ice to the time they left the boards to resume the program. The full time, was probably much more than that. No matter how you slice up the time, it looks like either there should have been an interruption deduction or a disqualification. Pick one.

    For all the money spent on technology, a successful competition still comes down to the officials doing their jobs correctly. There is ample reason to question whether that was the case here. If the third and fourth place teams were not also from China, one might expect that a protest would have been forthcoming in this case."

  2. #62
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,977
    Exactly, the Chinese teams aren't going to protest b/c they are all in this together and have the same coach. Though if the 4rth place team was non-Chinese, well there would have been a great controversy. But unfortunately the pairs are so far behind the two Russian pairs and the Chinese. It's speaks a lot for the state of pairs that even with the fall, the Zhangs were at least 4rth best. I could b!tch about Zhao not getting bigger deductions fo rnot anchoring his foot into the death spirals and the total lack of unison on SBS pairs spins (save for Pang and Tong), but even with those errors, they are light years ahead of the other pairs. I'm just wondering whether pairs took a step backward? Many years ago (correct me if I am wrong), many teams were doing triple twists (Americans, Canadians etc). Why aren't the teams doing that element now? Even the Russians aren't doing the 3 twist (save for T&M). I remember G&G doing that so easily. Did something change with that element b/c almost everyone (even Pet Tikhs) is doing a double.

  3. #63
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    4,430
    Absolutely agree with article. Deduction at the very least MUST have been taken. Also agree that we would have been in a storm of protests had a medal been on the line for another country. Say, if Pet & Tik actually had an awesome skate, where between S&Z and Pa&To, and could have gotten bronze with Z&Z disqualification.

  4. #64
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    15,983
    soogar said ---
    Many years ago (correct me if I am wrong), many teams were doing triple twists (Americans, Canadians etc). Why aren't the teams doing that element now? Even the Russians aren't doing the 3 twist (save for T&M). I remember G&G doing that so easily. Did something change with that element b/c almost everyone (even Pet Tikhs) is doing a double.
    COP, as it is currently written, doesn't encourage triple twists this year. This year twists got levels, just as spins do. A double twist of level3 gets a base value of 4.0. None of the pairs get level 4 because a full split (180 degrees) is compulsory. To get level 3, you need only 2 features from the following list:

    1. Split of 90 degrees or more by the lady
    2. Catching the lady without her hands touching the man (easy to demonstrate if the lady's arms are over her head, a common choice today)
    3. Catching the lady at the side of the waist
    4. Lady's position in the air with arms above the head
    5. Difficult takeoff (steps preceding takeoff, etc)

    So 2tw3 is easy to get.

    A triple twist without features is also worth 4.0. Why take the risk??? Most of the pairs don't, especially since the judges have always been quick to take the deductions for:
    chest crashes, 2 footed catch by the man, lady is not caught in the air, lady is not caught at the waist, and so forth

    In the same way, O&S are not doing their quad twist any more and are doing a triple twist of level 3 instead.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 02-16-2006 at 04:33 AM.

  5. #65
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,926
    Quote Originally Posted by Ptichka
    You're thinking of Eltsova & Bushkov, who trained under Moskivin, Tamara Moskvinna's husband, then switching Pavlova, who has trained Totmianina & Marinin prior to their switching to Vasiliev, as well as Berezhnaja prior to her teaming up with Sikhuralidze. They did indeed win Worlds in 1996, but I would equate that to Petrova & Tikhonov's World medal.
    Elena Berezhnaya did not train with Pavlova prior to pairing up with Anton S. She and her partner Shliakov were coached by Tamara Moskvina. Anton S. and Maria Petrova trained with the Velikovs before Anton & Elena became a pair.

    Why do you feel the need to put down Y&B's world gold and Pet-Tik's world gold? Y&B beat W&S, the Olympic bronze medallists; both made one mistake. Pet-Tik beat S&Z and S&P with a solid performance. There are no 'but's written against championships. Whoever grabs the opportunity at that moment wins it.

    Vash

  6. #66
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,926
    Quote Originally Posted by soogar
    Exactly, the Chinese teams aren't going to protest b/c they are all in this together and have the same coach. Though if the 4rth place team was non-Chinese, well there would have been a great controversy. But unfortunately the pairs are so far behind the two Russian pairs and the Chinese. It's speaks a lot for the state of pairs that even with the fall, the Zhangs were at least 4rth best. I could b!tch about Zhao not getting bigger deductions fo rnot anchoring his foot into the death spirals and the total lack of unison on SBS pairs spins (save for Pang and Tong), but even with those errors, they are light years ahead of the other pairs. I'm just wondering whether pairs took a step backward? Many years ago (correct me if I am wrong), many teams were doing triple twists (Americans, Canadians etc). Why aren't the teams doing that element now? Even the Russians aren't doing the 3 twist (save for T&M). I remember G&G doing that so easily. Did something change with that element b/c almost everyone (even Pet Tikhs) is doing a double.
    You brought up several interesting points.

    First, did pairs skating take a step back? In a way yes. I don't mean to bash the Chinese skaters but their big tricks have diverted attention from the basics of pairs skating. The COP helps them.

    Unison in spins and jumps is a beautiful thing in pairs skating. It also a very difficult thing. IMO skaters are not spending time developing unison anymore because they must feel big tricks would get them the marks, and not finesse.

    S&Z were clearly the best Chinese pair, even with mistakes.

    Pairs have started doing split double twists in their LP's recently because the point differential between a split double and a split triple is not worth the risk of getting negative GOE's on the split triple. So skaters are using the safer approach and doing a high quality split double. We are seeing similar things in mens skating also, thanks to COP. Instead of going for a quad skaters are doing 3flip-3toe or 3lutz-3toe combinations to avoid the risk of a quad. Again, the benefit (points for a quad) is not worth the risk.

    BTW I strongly believe that the Zhangs should have received a major deduction. Under the 6.0 system there is no way they would have placed so high after that kind of disruption in the program. The good thing about the 6.0 system was that even though they looked at each element, they also looked at the program/performance as a whole.

    Vash

  7. #67
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,926
    Quote Originally Posted by zeytin
    i'm totally agree with you...ok chinese pairs have great technics but i don't find their routines interesting, i don't think they skate artistically, except S/Z. but TT/MM have both technic (they skated 2 flawless programm!) and great artistry on the ice. it's not only a jumping contest, so TT/MM deserved it more than everybody!
    and i think if S/Z were healthy, the result wouldn't have changed.and if Zhang landed the quad, the result would be the same again....
    i also realized the eye contact between them...tatiana looked at him in such a beautiful way after an element. they skated with great excitement after they landed all jumps and looked at each other like saying we're the champions!

    zeytin
    Thanks for the positive post about T&M. Somehow on this board they seem to be one of the most hated pairs. I love their strong basics, lines, extensions, and their consistency. They have been through so much, but they have become stronger. They delivered two beautiful and flawless performances. In my book at least they belong with other great Russian pairs. I loved the emotion they showed when they finished. Their tears on the medal podium were more than enough to convince me that this had been a very hard road to the Olympic gold. Congratulations to T&M.

    Vash

  8. #68
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Auburn, Washington
    Posts
    5
    [QUOTE=Vash01]Thanks for the positive post about T&M. Somehow on this board they seem to be one of the most hated pairs.

    Perhaps the reason for this is the mean spirited behavior on her part. I've watched the footage of the practice twice and saw nothing amiss. I've also talked to people who were there and saw it live and saw nothing wrong.

    I also personally watched her exhibit some very unsportsmanlike behavior at Worlds toward both Candian and American skaters (which I won't get into since it's just more of the same that's been said here.)

    I guess it shouldn't interfere with my "appreciation" of their skating but I agree with what David Peltier said on the "Olympic Ice" show--one needs to be just as gracious in winning as in losing.

  9. #69
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    788

    Emotion

    That was emotion? Tatiana left the stone come off her face long enough to show relief... that was about it. No joy, no appreciation, no passion, just relief at having gotten it over with, like it was an odious task. She expresses all the emotion of a corpse.
    Linny

  10. #70
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,977
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    Unison in spins and jumps is a beautiful thing in pairs skating. It also a very difficult thing. IMO skaters are not spending time developing unison anymore because they must feel big tricks would get them the marks, and not finesse.


    Vash
    If COP wants to value a nice double twist the same as a triple twist,then it also needs to place more emphasis on the SBS spins. To me, the unison of the elements are the most important thing and SBS spins are the most difficult thing to achieve in pairs. Back in 6.0, skaters were having a hard time soing sinple spins in unison. With everyone bumping up their levels, it's becoming even harder to spinin unison. That's why I think Pang and Tongs SBS spins are worth more than any lateral triple twist or throw the chinese can come up with. Spins last the longest and there is the biggest margin for mistake. Plus they are an integral element of pairs. I'm not even the most knowledgable teknik in pairs, but I *ALWAYS* look at the SBS spins. That's how you can separate the winners from the wanna-bes.

  11. #71
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    2,803
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    BTW I strongly believe that the Zhangs should have received a major deduction. Under the 6.0 system there is no way they would have placed so high after that kind of disruption in the program. The good thing about the 6.0 system was that even though they looked at each element, they also looked at the program/performance as a whole.

    Vash
    I'm curious why they weren't significantly "dinged" for this in the PCS scores - especially under Performance/Execution, Interpretation, etc. I haven't read the detailed descriptions under each category in awhile, but I'm surprised the long break in the program can be (apparently) completely overlooked on the PCS side of the house. But of course, I think most of us agree that PCS needs to be implemented more effectively in many ways - I certainly hope for that in the future.

    DG

  12. #72
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Doggygirl

    I think most of us agree that PCS needs to be implemented more effectively in many ways - I certainly hope for that in the future.

    DG
    And I'm hoping for a magic pony in the future. I think we'll get our wishes at about the same time.

  13. #73
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    2,803
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke
    And I'm hoping for a magic pony in the future. I think we'll get our wishes at about the same time.
    When the genie comes out of the bottle, right?

  14. #74
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    15,983
    Kudos to Pang and Tong for a great spin in the LP, best I have ever seen them do.

    I love a good pair spin but the best spinners are sure not the winners these days. The current best spinners are I&B and O&S and have been for 2 years. (Check I&B's sp spin ...they were very tight in the LP and not themselves, but the SP spin is their usual). Both couples consistently do level 4 for positive GOE. When I&B are on, the spins are fast, the edge changes are crisp and coordinated, and every position is absolute mirror. O&S are almost as good, just not quite as crisp on the changes (maybe .1 GOE is the usual diff).

  15. #75
    Yeah! Lets get this party started. enlight78's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,029
    Quote Originally Posted by soogar
    If COP wants to value a nice double twist the same as a triple twist,then it also needs to place more emphasis on the SBS spins. To me, the unison of the elements are the most important thing and SBS spins are the most difficult thing to achieve in pairs. Back in 6.0, skaters were having a hard time soing sinple spins in unison. With everyone bumping up their levels, it's becoming even harder to spinin unison. That's why I think Pang and Tongs SBS spins are worth more than any lateral triple twist or throw the chinese can come up with. Spins last the longest and there is the biggest margin for mistake. Plus they are an integral element of pairs. I'm not even the most knowledgable teknik in pairs, but I *ALWAYS* look at the SBS spins. That's how you can separate the winners from the wanna-bes.
    I completely agree. It is just a shame when you see a huge perfect triple throw. Then you see those horrible SBS spins, it jerks you out of the program.

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •