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Thread: restart rules

  1. #1
    On the Ice
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    restart rules

    congratulations to all the pairs for gutsy performances.
    just skating in the pairs event is gutsy for openers but
    each pair demonstrated the olympic spirit.

    that being said, i was not overwhelmed by any performance.
    the personal best, i thought, had to go to parchem & hinzmann.
    they were lovely.

    now for my question:

    i was surprised that zhang & zhang were allowed to continue
    with their program after stopping.

    i was under the impression that you could restart if
    you had a technical problem i.e. object on the ice interfering
    with skating or skate boot unlacing or costume falling apart...
    but if you fall, isn't that your fault? and doesn't that mean
    you can't keep going once you stop?

    if you could stop, have a two minute break and start again, then
    couldn't tikhonov get a little breather in the middle of his long
    after a "fall", talk to his medics then pick up where he left off?
    with a breather in the middle, tikhonov might be able to deliver
    a podium performance with his partner. certainly they
    did a strong short.

    so i'm just confused and wondered if someone could clarify
    the isu rule on restarts.

    i don't want to grumble about the spirit, the performance or
    the courage....just a technical rule...

  2. #2
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    There have been several cases in the past -like Midori Ito flying through the boards into the camera pit - she just jumped up and kept skating. I also seem to recall some skaters having costume problems and re-starting, like the infamous Tony Harding broken lace, crocodile tears, 20 min (it seemed) backstage getting new laces, Josee Chiunard being rushed on to the ice, Tonya coming back to boos.... alas, there have been worse cases where the ref. has let people re-start their programs. I think Tonya was even able to start from the beginning and re-do a jump, which was really unfair if I'm remembering correctly.

  3. #3
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    I too was somewhat confused about the restart rules. I don't think they should have been allowed to pick up the program from the exact point she fell b/c it was obvious that it was a bad fall and there would have been a very big gap in the program had she continued skating. I've seen other pairs in the past with bad falls and they would continue the program and lose a lot of points for the gap. Personally I think Pang and Tong were robbed of a medal because Zhangs were able to continue after a "rest" and their program didn't have a gap. I thikn that they should have continued the program from the point the skater went to the referee because the Zhangs were on the ice for at least 10 seconds trying to figure out whether to continue or not. They should have started from that point and not the point of the fall.

  4. #4
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    The Zhangs received a gift, IMO. It reminds me of the Oda incident at 4CC. He had a hard fall on a jump, he just skated around for half a minute, which seemed like eternity. Then he picked up, did rest of his program and won.

    The Zhangs had a similar situation. She fell as a result of a mistake, not an equipment or costume problem. If it was the latter, the referee would have stopped them. In this case they could not continue for a long time. My guess is that the referee thought they would not continue (I did not think they would). However, she went to the boards, had the knee looked at, then decided to continue. This interval was much longer than 2 minutes which are allowed by the rule (Oda did not actually stop the program, and did not get off the ice, so his case was a little different).

    I suspect the COP had not addressed a situation like this and even the referee was confused by it. He/she started the clock only after it became clear that the Zhangs wanted to continue. From that point they were back on ice within 2 minutes.

    IMO this precedent is dangerous. Any skater could use this strategy after a fall, get some rest, and return to complete the program.

    When Tonya Harding had a problem with her shoe laces, she actually went off the ice for one whole routine (skated by Josee Chouinard- to her great distress). I wonder if the rules were different in 1994?

    The ISU needs to fix this hole in the rules ASAP, which means after the Olympics or we will see some very unfair results in the future. IMO Z&Z's silver medal was very unfair to both S&Z and Pang & Tong. They happened to be from the same country. Otherwise we would have heard some very loud protests.

    Vash

  5. #5
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    even the referee was confused by it. He/she started the clock only after it became clear that the Zhangs wanted to continue. From that point they were back on ice within 2 minutes.
    Vash
    In that case the mistake was the referee's and not the Zhangs. (Though I thoroughly disagree with their final placement).

  6. #6
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    Jamie Sale said a team can pick up from where the music ended, not where they stopped - so it seems it depends on how quick they are to stop skating and how quick the music person flips off the CD. I guess if he or she was on a bathroom break Zhang and Zhang would be out of luck.

  7. #7
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    Falls and restarts

    FYIW, in my sport (dressage) the rider can fall off the horse and not be eliminated. S/he takes a 0 for the movement she fell on, but can mount up again and continue where s/he left off.

    If the horse falls, though, that's a different story. The horse/rider pair are then eliminated.

    I doubt truly that any skater would ever purposely fall to get a rest break.

    Linny

  8. #8
    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    After reading more details (from posters at FSU - and they quote ISU rules) I am comfortable that the rules were applied correctly in this situation.

    I understand the perspective that the restart rule, as it applies to possible necessity for medical attention for the skaters' safety. I still really question that within these rules, a program can be disrupted to this degree, and have no deductions for the interuption, and no consequences in the PCS scoring. My questions don't pertain specifically to the Zhangs - we saw it earlier in the season (to a lesser degree) with Oda.

    I admire the courage it takes for skaters to collect themselves and carry on after such a fall. But I also question the fairness of such vastly disrupted programs ending up as medal winning performances.

    I don't know what the right answer is to balance safety with fairness to the other competitors. And for now, these are the rules, and as a "rules are rules" type, I'm OK with the outcome. I hope this is closely considered for the future.

    DG
    Last edited by Doggygirl; 02-15-2006 at 01:10 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linny
    FYIW, in my sport (dressage) the rider can fall off the horse and not be eliminated. S/he takes a 0 for the movement she fell on, but can mount up again and continue where s/he left off.

    If the horse falls, though, that's a different story. The horse/rider pair are then eliminated.

    I doubt truly that any skater would ever purposely fall to get a rest break.

    Linny
    Well they didn't fall purposely, but they took the risk to put the element in and therefore they need to suck up the repercussions of it. There's always the risk of falling on your knees in skating. Obviously I've never fallen on a move like the Zhangs, but even on a sinple crossover, falling on the knees is the most painful thing in the world and I have tears in my eyes. No doubt Zhang was in pain but banging the knee on the ice is more *painful* than permanent damage. They had an "advantage" in stopping the program and taking time to let the knee pain subside. That kind of sharp knee pain subsides enough where they can do the rest of their elements with no problem. I'm not trying to belittle the Zhangs b/c skating like that on a jammed knee is painful, but had they had to return to the ice quicker, they would have had to deal with the consequences of that fall and it would have affected thier other elements. My thought is that it is very unfair to other pairs who do fall painfully but don't do so in such a dramatic fashion and the rest of their program suffers b/c the pair is continuing without a "rest" and putting strain on an already banged up body part. It is very unfair.

  10. #10
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    I love all three of the Chinese pairs, but thought Zhang and Zhang were scored too favorably after their fall. I thought they should have been placed no higher than fourth, moving S and Z to silver and Pang and Tong to bronze...........the latter definitely "wuz robbed"...........42

  11. #11
    Go NJ Devils
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    The rule was changed under OBO to force the skaters to pick up the program where it left off and to deny them a chance for a restart. (It used to be the skaters' option.) Since her fall happened on the first element, they were able to continue uninterrupted for the rest of the program.

    Oda had two breaks in his program: once immediately after his fall and collision with the boards, and later again, after he resumed skating. The referee didn't interfere and stop the program after his fall, which was surprising to me. If he had, Oda would have been given an opportunity to pick up the program from right after the fall, after a two-minute recovery period.

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