Russian pairs dominance @ Olympics - Can it continue? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Russian pairs dominance @ Olympics - Can it continue?

julietvalcouer

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 10, 2005
Russian skating, especially pairs, has ceased to be artistic and become boring. T/M were not artistic. Artistry is about risk-taking. They were tentative to the point of being slow, and some of their positions were outright ugly (their spiral in particular should have been slammed hard. It was unattractice and not even overly difficult.) The Chinese, on the other hand, especially Z/Z, took risks and were INNOVATIVE. They had different positions, especially on lifts, while it's sadly obvious T/M are still too scared to do anything with the lifts. And unlike Moskvina's pairs, they didn't even look particularly graceful doing it. Totminanina in particular has no expression--she's just punching a clock. It's sad, but the Russians keep trying to be G & G, and it's just not going to happen.

As for the "Russian pairs is so balletic", don't make me laugh. If ballet were as stagnant as their recent pairs, it wouldn't have changed since Diaghilev was promoting Nijinsky (who was great because, again, he pushed the envelope.) Ballet is not about robotic repetition of elements, either, or getting muscled into positions just because.
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
STL_Blues_fan said:
Klimkin has stated that he plans to stick around till 2010 and he is using Turin as an experience (the interview was given after he bombed the short, poor guy). I think Russia has a deep field of junior guys. Ladies is another story. I think pairs and dance will be ok. We are not seeing a lot internationally because the big guns make it to the world stage and youngsters stay home. Once the stars retire, there is always somebody who will step up.

.

Is he really??? That's the best news I have ever heard!!!! :rock: :rock:
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Vash01After Plushenko's retirement there is no new star on the horizon. I don't see Klimkin (too many injuries) said:
I think the Russians have a lot of promising boys that need more time to develop. Is Plushenko definitely retiring? He has spoken of going until 2010 in some interviews and retiring in other interviews. Dobrin and Uspenski, as well as the zillion other very talented boys who don't see the light of day have tons of potential. I don't know what is going on with Gryazev but he was promising as well. I hope that bombing Russian Nats will put some fire inhis belly. I think that Gryazev's problem is that he doesn't seem to want it enough; too placid.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
If Klimkin gets his act together, WOW.

Back to Pairs: Protopopovs (I keep wanting to say Pommegranates), G&G and B&S - that was pure Russian magic which for me is more important than Russian dominance. All the other russian pairs are for me pure standard run-of-the mill robotic performers. Not saying they shouldn't win; just that they should only appear on a list of winners - not on a list of greats.

Joe
 

FreeKatie

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Joesitz said:
Protopopovs (I keep wanting to say Pommegranates) /QUOTE]

LOL!

It will be a sad time for skating if there are no more Ilia Kuliks, Bereshnaya&Shikeralidze's, Ekaterina Gordeeva's or Alexei Yagudin's in the future.
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Joesitz said:
Back to Pairs: Protopopovs (I keep wanting to say Pommegranates), G&G and B&S - that was pure Russian magic which for me is more important than Russian dominance. All the other russian pairs are for me pure standard run-of-the mill robotic performers. Not saying they shouldn't win; just that they should only appear on a list of winners - not on a list of greats.
Joe, what about Dmitriev with both partners? I understand that you could find them a little "over-the-top", but robotic they were not (IMHO). Also, when you're saying G&G, my guess is that you're talking about their pro career and '94 Olympics. Their '88 Olympic performace was I think more technical then anything else; at that time they haven't yet shaken off the Zhuk enough to be truly artistic.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Ptichka said:
Joe, what about Dmitriev with both partners? I understand that you could find them a little "over-the-top", but robotic they were not (IMHO). Also, when you're saying G&G, my guess is that you're talking about their pro career and '94 Olympics. Their '88 Olympic performace was I think more technical then anything else; at that time they haven't yet shaken off the Zhuk enough to be truly artistic.
Ptichka - You'll forgive me as I was not following figure skating for many years due to work. My pleasure in watching G&G is basically from re-runs and clips of them and the 94 Olys. I found them absolutely beautiful romantic skaters, and they certainly became special for me.
I'm not clear on Dmitriev. Is that Rodnina? If so, then like Tai and Randy I found those pairs to be excellent old fashion Pairs. Memorable, but not all that special.

If not, who is/was Dmitriev and his/her partners and when did they skate?

You have to understand, that my taste in any art form is more with the lyrical than with the WOW. I do enjoy WOW, but an overdose turns me off. I prefer to applaud an artist at the end of a performance rather than Wowwing them throughout the performance.

Joe
 

dreams76

Spectator
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
If not, who is/was Dmitriev and his/her partners and when did they skate?

Joe[/QUOTE]

Artur Dmitriev was the gold and silver medal winner in pairs skating with Natalia Mishkutenok at the '92 and '94 Olympics, as well as the gold medalist in pairs with Kazakova at the '98 games. I definitely think his name needs to be mentioned as one of the great Russian pairs skaters. After all, he is the only man to win gold with two seperate partners - no small feat.

I agree with those who feel as though the Russian pairs skaters of today just are not of the same quality of G&G, M&D and B&S. The skaters today do seem so robotic and forced. When I saw T&M's gold-medal winning performance, it did nothing for me. It wasn't moving or entertaining. I knew they would win b/c they had no errors, but their performance was pretty slow and their spins looked dismal. I'm no expert, and even I could see that their spins were not in sync or difficult.
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Joesitz said:
I'm not clear on Dmitriev. Is that Rodnina? If so, then like Tai and Randy I found those pairs to be excellent old fashion Pairs. Memorable, but not all that special.

If not, who is/was Dmitriev and his/her partners and when did they skate?
Rodnina's partners were Ulanov and then Zaitsev. Of course, they were Zhuk's students, so indeed there wasn't much but technical content there.

Main question about Dmitriev has already been answered, so I won't go over that again. I would say that Dmitriev epitomizes much of Moskvina's style. I would say that he (with both partners, but especially with Mishkitenok) is probably my favorite all time pair skter. Much as I loved B&S, I was always very nervous watchnig them; D&M seemed more confident on the ice.

Also, if you get a chance, look at G&G's '88 Olympic performace. I think you'll see what an incredible evolution that team went through between then and '94.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Thanks Ptichka - You've given me homework to do.:cool:

Joe

PS - I also find the Chinese rathr robotic too. However, for me, Pang and Tong really improved 100 per cent in their lyrical approach to skating. Maybe they will be the next G&G.

Joe
 

lulu

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
Can the Russians maintain their dominace-that remains to be seen. I think (and I hope) we will always have a Russian presence on the podium, but I don't think I'm being to overdramatic if I said that the absolutely brilliant heyday of Russian pairs skating: from the Protopopovs to Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze is very much slowing down.

As for the younger Russian pairs, I still think people need to give O&S a chance. Part of the problem is that I think that people's expectations were too high to begin with, because:
1. They were a Moskvina team
2. Yulia is a superstar-that is like Elena Berezhnaya's younger sister in terms of stroking etc.
I think we need to let them develop on their own time-and who knows maybe they'll skate up to their potential, maybe not.

On the otherhand, I don't see any other nation really overtaking the Russian dominace in pairs skating. China has done a masterful job at creating a pairs program for their senior skaters, but it doesn't sound as if there are a lot of promising skaters moving up the track.
Maybe Lulu & Denis Petrov can help train younger pair teams?

I enjoy Alona & Robin quite a bit, but, I'm not really sure how many other promising pairs Germany has right now.

I'm really starting to enjoy American pairs now. As a person who was feeling pretty blah about the status of American pairs after I&Z retiring, I'm greatly enjoying H&P skate-and hope they can continue to improve.
 

lulu

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
Russian greats

Also would to add my 2 cents in for adding Dmitriev to the list of all time greats. :rock:

In my opinion, the three greatest pair teams of the post Rodnina era (1980-2006) have been Gordeeva & Grinkov, Mishkutenok & Dmitriev and Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze.

Like Ptichka has already mentioned, Mishkutenok & Dmitriev very much epitomized the Moskvina style of skating, avant-garde, unique moves & oppositional choreography. Their programs were (like every Moskvina pair) packed with transitions. Dmitriev had a huge influence in the choreography, and he and Mosvkina clicked like very few coaches & students do.

Their greatest strength was their presentation skills & their artistry, what made them so unusual was how they presented that artistry. Unlike any other male pair skater up to that time, Dmitriev was not just presenting his partner, but was just as much involved in selling the program as Natalia was. In fact, I'd argue that he was more emotive, and was better at reaching out to the audience than Natalia was.
Of course, some people prefer the more traditional way of presentation, but as one ISU official said several years ago, there were only 2 male skaters that could take your attention away from their partners: Christopher Dean and Artur Dmitriev.

An area that they don't nearly get enough attention for, and it is unfortunate, is their basic skating skills. Part of this reason is because they skated at the same time as G&G, who had such perfect stroking skills (as B&S do now a days). M&D did not have this drop jaw perfection, but their basics were very, very good & the speed the generated on the ice was simply excellent.

As far as athletic elements went-they had a superb 3 twist. Dmitriev was also a very good jumper in his younger days-and hardly ever made any mistakes on his jumps. Natalia, had a bit more problems with her side by side jumps, especially her double axel.

They really were an excellent pair team-and I'm glad that they are still being remembered by posters today.
Although, I don't think they are remembered in their home country NEARLY as much as they should be. :frown:

Artur also formed a very successful partnership with Oksana Kazakova-and I greatly enjoy their programs, but IMO, he did his best work with Mishktuenok.
 
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76olympics

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 4, 2004
Actually, I loved G and G's 1988 long program--it did not smack of Zhuk to me. Katia was so expressive and airy light and she seemed to be full of joy the entire skate. I still watch it to inject some cheer on a gloomy day. I believe Marina choreographed this number.

I think that is the difference to me between G and G, M and D, B and S versus T and M. I think the earlier pairs (particularly G and G and particularly Katia )seemed to light up the ice. They seemed to enjoy the program; they didn't look as stressed as the western pairs sometimes did. T and M skate really well, but that spark /that quality isn't there (for me, anyway).
 

julietvalcouer

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 10, 2005
76olympics said:
I think that is the difference to me between G and G, M and D, B and S versus T and M. I think the earlier pairs (particularly G and G and particularly Katia )seemed to light up the ice. They seemed to enjoy the program; they didn't look as stressed as the western pairs sometimes did. T and M skate really well, but that spark /that quality isn't there (for me, anyway).

Exactly! Though at times B/S sometimes seemed a bit clock-puncher to me, too, they were never anywhere as cold-blooded as T/M are. G/G really just...you believed they wanted to be out there skating, with each other. M/D, too, though G/G were really just in a class by themselves.
 
S

SkateFan4Life

Guest
Joesitz said:
They may have a new Pairs team for gold ready by 2010 full of the robotic moves to get more points but there will never be another B&S for years to come.

Joe

And, as far as I'm concerned, there will never be another Gordeeva and Grinkov. They set the standard for pairs skating, plain and simple - nationality notwithstanding. :bow:

I had the privilege of seeing Ludmila and Oleg Protopopov compete at the first ever World Professional Championships. They won the competion easily, and they were simply brilliant. They were the first in the long line of successive Rusian/Soviet Olympic pairs champions, winning gold in 1964 and 1968. :bow:

The Russians and former Soviet Union skaters have a special quality, a sense of artistry and grace, not to mention a strong tradition of ballet and music. Will they continue to win Olympic gold medals in pairs skating? I would not bet against it; however, perhaps the Chinese will win in 2010.
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Joesitz said:
They may have a new Pairs team for gold ready by 2010 full of the robotic moves to get more points but there will never be another B&S for years to come.

Joe

It will be hard to find another B&S. They were/are truly special. However, I am sure there are some beautiful pairs out there. I remember seeing a video last year of a young Russian pair whose name I cannot remember right now. They had the potential to be beautiful. It is too early to say if they have the heart of a champion.

I don't find T&M or Pet-Tik robotic at all. I like their classical style.

The COP has made FS in general rather robotic, with everyone going for more points rather than interpreting the music. I find the Chinese pairs extremely robotic (S&Z are an exception). They don't even have basic skating skills, postures or unison. I am afraid that if this style wins medals, it would not be a good thing for pairs skating.

Vash
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Joesitz said:
Thanks Ptichka - You've given me homework to do.:cool:

Joe

PS - I also find the Chinese rathr robotic too. However, for me, Pang and Tong really improved 100 per cent in their lyrical approach to skating. Maybe they will be the next G&G.

Joe

Next G&G??? Certainly not Pang & Tong. She has a terrible posture (although he is very good).

Vash
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
lulu said:
Also would to add my 2 cents in for adding Dmitriev to the list of all time greats. :rock:

In my opinion, the three greatest pair teams of the post Rodnina era (1980-2006) have been Gordeeva & Grinkov, Mishkutenok & Dmitriev and Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze.

Like Ptichka has already mentioned, Mishkutenok & Dmitriev very much epitomized the Moskvina style of skating, avant-garde, unique moves & oppositional choreography. Their programs were (like every Moskvina pair) packed with transitions. Dmitriev had a huge influence in the choreography, and he and Mosvkina clicked like very few coaches & students do.

Their greatest strength was their presentation skills & their artistry, what made them so unusual was how they presented that artistry. Unlike any other male pair skater up to that time, Dmitriev was not just presenting his partner, but was just as much involved in selling the program as Natalia was. In fact, I'd argue that he was more emotive, and was better at reaching out to the audience than Natalia was.
Of course, some people prefer the more traditional way of presentation, but as one ISU official said several years ago, there were only 2 male skaters that could take your attention away from their partners: Christopher Dean and Artur Dmitriev.

An area that they don't nearly get enough attention for, and it is unfortunate, is their basic skating skills. Part of this reason is because they skated at the same time as G&G, who had such perfect stroking skills (as B&S do now a days). M&D did not have this drop jaw perfection, but their basics were very, very good & the speed the generated on the ice was simply excellent.

As far as athletic elements went-they had a superb 3 twist. Dmitriev was also a very good jumper in his younger days-and hardly ever made any mistakes on his jumps. Natalia, had a bit more problems with her side by side jumps, especially her double axel.

They really were an excellent pair team-and I'm glad that they are still being remembered by posters today.
Although, I don't think they are remembered in their home country NEARLY as much as they should be. :frown:

Artur also formed a very successful partnership with Oksana Kazakova-and I greatly enjoy their programs, but IMO, he did his best work with Mishktuenok.

ITA on almost everything. I loved M&D and I feel that they did not always get the respect they deserved because they were overshadowed by G&G's perfection as you pointed out. M&D had a lot to contribute to pairs skating. For the first time the male partner was as important as his female counterpart. They brought so many innovative moves to pairs skating that it made the discipline much more interesting. B&S carried that further, with their great basic skills combined with innovative moves.

Vash
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Vash01 said:
I don't find T&M or Pet-Tik robotic at all. I like their classical style.
Vash - We have different definitions of 'classical' Check out the old Bolshoi dancers, they emphasized 'classical'. The Russians are way behind in modern ballet, unfortunately.

The COP has made FS in general rather robotic, with everyone going for more points rather than interpreting the music.
Vash
True, true, true.

Joe
 
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