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Thread: Plushenko's ridiculous PCS

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    Lysacek, Sandhu, and to a lesser extent Joubert were the ones overscored, not really Plushenko. Plushenko's PCS and spin scores are high sometimes but how was he that overscored. If Lambiel's error-strewn performances were the 2nd best, if Buttle's flawed free skate with a fall on his only quad attempt was the 2nd best free skate, and if Weir quadless short program was the 2nd best short program, then Plushenko's huge margins over the field are understandable.
    In the 6.0 system, where they were, in a sense, graded on a curve, then fine. But this system (supposedly) is based on awarding points to the individual skater, regardless of everyone else. Just because Plushenko was the best, doesn't mean he deserved the points he got.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    Lysacek, Sandhu, and to a lesser extent Joubert were the ones overscored, not really Plushenko. Plushenko's PCS and spin scores are high sometimes but how was he that overscored. If Lambiel's error-strewn performances were the 2nd best, if Buttle's flawed free skate with a fall on his only quad attempt was the 2nd best free skate, and if Weir quadless short program was the 2nd best short program, then Plushenko's huge margins over the field are understandable.
    Both Sandhu and Joubert had subpar free skates, but Lysacek skated a clean program that had 8 triples and pcs-friendly elements like transitions and choreography- how was he overscored? You seem to be saying that Plushenko's high PCS scores are justified because none of his competitors landed quads, but quads don't have anything to do with any of the PCS marks (except maybe skating skills) so whether a skater does a quad or not should be irrelevant in terms of PCS unless he has a really messy fall on it.

  3. #33
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    Then in other words, a fall - or falls would/should lower the PC scores automatically? A fall, or falls, does take away from the flow of the program, it does hurt choreo, performance and even transitions, or am I getting it wrong?
    Last edited by Vitacus; 02-18-2006 at 08:04 AM.

  4. #34
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    i really can't understand why Plushenko is taking such negative reactions from everyone! I really wasn't expecting it. it really bothers me, because looks like he's never had good programs. I think everyone was a little overmarked but the only topic is plush's high scores.
    he had lots of artistically strong programms in last 6 six years...he is not only strong at jumps...remember his exhibitions, crowd always has been pretty nice to him...he was always like a superstar at exhibitions, is this just because he jumps well???

    zeytin

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytin
    i really can't understand why Plushenko is taking such negative reactions from everyone! I really wasn't expecting it. it really bothers me, because looks like he's never had good programs. I think everyone was a little overmarked but the only topic is plush's high scores.
    he had lots of artistically strong programms in last 6 six years...he is not only strong at jumps...remember his exhibitions, crowd always has been pretty nice to him...he was always like a superstar at exhibitions, is this just because he jumps well???
    zeytin
    Plushenko is a showman and jumper, but this was the least interesting gold medal mens lp since Scott Hamilton in 1984 (and he was sick and didn't win the lp). Plushenko himself didn't seem so pleased with it. But .... the judges gave him record setting marks including very high marks for transitions (did you see any?) and choreography (did you see any?)
    It's not Plushenko's fault as much as the judges and that's where the anger (at least mine) is directed. I though he won the sp and lp both, just not by such large margins.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rain
    The judges could have easily given Plushenko scores more reflective of his actual performance and he would still have won. It irks me that they try to make it look like he had the best skate of all time. I thought, in fact, just in general performance quality it didn't even rank up there with the best performances Plushenko's ever given. He looked kind of paint-by-numbers without much passion. Perhaps because there was nobody there to push him. Nevertheless, it was not the most exciting LP in Olympic history.
    End of ramble.
    ITA on your whole post. Unfair judging is still alive and well.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeytin
    he had lots of artistically strong programms in last 6 six years...he is not only strong at jumps...remember his exhibitions, crowd always has been pretty nice to him...he was always like a superstar at exhibitions, is this just because he jumps well???

    zeytin
    We are not judging what he has done in the last 6 years or in exhibitions and the judges shouldn't have been either. His Olympic programs were very lackluster in the PCS category and those are the only 2 programs that should count toward his scores - not how good his presentation might have been in an exhibition somewhere in the last 6 years.
    Last edited by SunshineSlayer; 02-18-2006 at 05:04 PM.

  7. #37
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    if judges have given their marks for only the performance they watched that night, sandhu would be at last place or something like that....judges do this every time....not only for plushenko...
    but i agree that plush wasn't good at olympics and he wasn't like his old times...i enjoyed his old programms much much more than this one...

    zeytin

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytin
    if judges have given their marks for only the performance they watched that night, sandhu would be at last place or something like that....judges do this every time....not only for plushenko...

    zeytin
    Obviously this is something that must change though. Just because it is common, doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzheng
    Yagudin at least shown his emotion at SLC when he weas skating. Where is Plushen's 'flashy' 'pizaz' he usually to carry? None, zlich.

    He deserved his win. But he was rediculously over marked in at least 3 PCS scores (Transitions, interpretation, choreography). Totally blah on interpretation and choreography in SP. And totally blah on transitions in LP.

    ETA. My daughter's comments on Plushen's SP performance


    She said his agitated arm flailing deserved a level 12. Cause she tried imitating his flailing arms. Then commented:


    Your daughter's hilarious!!!! :chorus:

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunshineSlayer
    ITA on your whole post. Unfair judging is still alive and well.



    We are not judging what he has done in the last 6 years or in exhibitions and the judges shouldn't have been either. His Olympic programs were very lackluster in the PCS category and those are the only 2 programs that should count toward his scores - not how good his presentation might have been in an exhibition somewhere in the last 6 years.
    He did not have his usual passion in his LP, but his SP was fine. I disagree that BOTH his Olympic programs were poor in PCS. I agree about his transitions not being the most difficult and he did not Sell the program the way he normally does but the comments I am reading here are giving me the impression that Plushenko skated horribly. I find that disturbing. These were the Olympics. Most skaters get nervous, particularly those who are under pressure (or feel that they are) to win medals. The subpar performances of Weir, Lambiel, Joubert are clear examples of this. For the performance he gave, Lambiel's scores were high, although the placement was correct. Buttle seemed less nervous but he too made mistakes. However, I feel that Plushenko is being criticized way too much. Only a handful of Olympic champions skated their best in their gold medal winning performances, and they were exceptions rather than rule (Boitano, Kulik, Hughes, G&G in 88). Yagudin skated well, but he too was a bit cautious compared to usual (I watched it live). Hamilton's LP performance was particularly poor. The usually reliable Kristi Yamaguchi did not skate her best either. They all deserved their wins, just like Plushenko deserved his. Yet I don't recall the skaters I mentioned being subjected to this kind of criticism. Plushenko was obviously under tremendous pressure and wanted to make sure that he would skate clean. It was not his best performance but there can be no two opinions about his win.

    Vash

  11. #41
    What would Brian Boitano do?
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    It's the judges at fault, not plushenko

    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    ...but the comments I am reading here are giving me the impression that Plushenko skated horribly. ...However, I feel that Plushenko is being criticized way too much. ...They all deserved their wins, just like Plushenko deserved his. Yet I don't recall the skaters I mentioned being subjected to this kind of criticism. Plushenko was obviously under tremendous pressure and wanted to make sure that he would skate clean. It was not his best performance but there can be no two opinions about his win.
    Vash
    I think just about everyone has started their comments by agreeing with the placement, so there's no argument that Plush won. I don't know that the other skaters you had mentioned were so obviously overmarked. It does seem really, really, really out there that he should have such incredibly high scores for a workmanlike performance. It was the best of the night, but hardly his best or a standout performance deserving of the scores. For me, that's what's so incredibly disappointing- there was no need to go overboard. Just judge it with some degree of objectivity and he wins. The scores indicate that there isn't any objectivity, or any attempt to do so. The criticism should (and mostly is, I think) be directed at the judges, who have failed again. Mixed in is some disappointment, which I think can be applied to just about every skater, that Plushenko didn't skate to his potential.

    I really think the solution is to have professional, paid judges under ISU (or better yet, an independent international figure skating body) control, without secrets. Cut the federations out of the picture. And limit judges to ex-skaters.

  12. #42
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    No doubt he should have won the gold, but his scores were incredibly inflated. This worries me because I wonder if anyone will ever have a chance against him? I'd hate to think that judging for men skaters will be completely out of whack for 4 more years or until he retires.
    I'd also like to see him skate a program that is actually difficult, beyond the jumps. I've seen him skate beautifully choreographed programs in the past and was very disappointed with what I saw in his LP this year. I guess he knows he doesn't need to push himself artistically to win, so why bother?

  13. #43
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    i agree that he should have won, but not with those ridiculous scores... his technical element score seemed to me to be about right, but his program component scores i just didnt understand at all...

  14. #44
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    In Plushenko's defence, I thought all skaters' marks were inflated. Most of them got a PB with subpar flawed performances in both SP and FP. Do you think they are complaining about the generousity of the judges?

  15. #45
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    While I don't think there's any excuse for bad incorrect judging and inflated scores, old habits do die hard. If you look at the scores from the 2002 Olympics, when judges only had to remember two scores for each skater to place them, and they had pencil and paper, in the Men's LP:

    1. Yagudin skated last, so there was no reason to overmark him at all, as long as the placement was correct

    2. Four judges gave Yagudin a 6.0 in pre for a performance that was widely reported as being a bit conservative and without the verve he normally showed.

    3. All four of those judges had at least one other set of scores that didn't include a 6.0 for pre and didn't change the tech placement of the two, in order to give Yagudin the first place ordinal:

    Judge #3 (Allen): 5.9/6.0 vs. 5.7/5.9. She could have given Yagudin 5.9/5.9 or 5.8/5.9. However, this would have meant giving Plushenko and Yagudin the same pre score, forcing a 6.0 if she wanted to give him a higher one than Plushenko's.

    Judge #4 (Bellu): 5.9/6.0 vs. 5.9/5.8. He could have given Yagudin 5.9/5.9

    Judge #6 (Waldeck): 5.9/6.0 vs. 5.8/5.8. He could have given Yagudin 5.9/5.9.

    Judge #9 (Bogdanova): 5.9/6.0 vs. 5.8/5.8. She could have given Yagudin 5.9/5.9.

    All of the judges could have placed Yagudin above Plushenko by lowering the tech scores as well, so that Yagudin's tech was equal to or below Plushenko's.

    Grade inflation is a habit, and as long as the judges are all in the same corridor, the ISU will either let it be, or will continue to use training to get the judges in line.
    Last edited by hockeyfan228; 02-20-2006 at 02:25 PM.

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