Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 33

Thread: MENS LP = Lame programs?

  1. #1
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,347

    MENS LP = Lame programs?

    Strange competition, in terms of skating enjoyment I liked four programs from the third! and second! groups more than anything in the final flight ...

    Klimkin - Yay! did much better, I still don't understand why his SP score was so low. Can anyone explain. Not his best as he's ditched a lot of his more interesting stuff to get in the COP friendly elements. If he had to fall (I suppose he did) then better on the cantilever than on a jump I guess. I'm hoping that his relatively low scores are paying his dues in COP and that we'll see more realistic numbers at worlds.

    Van Perrin - Sloppy in places (muchos balance-checkos in his footwork) but the best he's done, really woke up the place. First real show stopper of the evening. I'm still not a fan, but I can see why some people are. First quad in competition for him I think.

    Lysacek - How does he pronounce his name? Is it Lee-sah-check? Anyway, well choreographed and delivered with a lot of committment. Spins a little on the weak side (yes, we realise you can stick your leg straight out in a sitspin, that's very commendable, now stop it). Was very diva-ish in the final footwork. If he gets a quad he'll be a real force.

    Savoie - Best match of choreography and performance all night. Personal favorite performance all night. Sloppy in places. Not the greatest extension in moves that cry out for it, not the greatest centering, but inventive and wonderful and please don't retire. Please. Don't. We need stuff like this (I need stuff like this). Stay in. (don't make me get tough now).

    Plushenko - Has there ever been a more front-loaded choreography free program? Let's see, it opens with siix, 6, seis, sechs, sei, shest' that's SIX!!!!!!!!!! freaking jumping passes with no footwork or spins and virtually no choreography. He was OVER TWO MINUTES into the program before the first spin. Is this reflected in PCS? Don't be silly, darling, this is Plushenko. The huge crowd reaction is more due to this being the olympics and plushenko finally getting the gold than the performance itself (reminds me of scott hamilton in Sarajevo) At least I hope that's the case. PCS come from another planet as far as I can tell. Yes, I would have him first in both SP and LP but the margins have no basis in reality. This is the olympics, not a lifetime achievement award.
    Still all credit to him, he's the first ever (I think) skater to actually get the gold that eluded him in a previous olympics. I can't think of another gold contender who didn't win and then came back to win.

    Lambiel - A mess, for him, that's all there is to it, wins silver placing 3rd in the short and 4th(!) in the long, that's just messed up. Final spin and a jump here or there was okay but that's it. I'm hoping for better stuff for him. He wins the gold medal for hideous lp costume. Zebra/Tiger strips with blue sleeves and baggy pants leave everyone in the dust. I had to avert my eyes at times.

    Weir - Okay, I was expecting a meltdown from descriptions and this wasn't a meltdown. It was sloppy and distracted FOR WEIR but most skaters never come close to this level of choreography and execution. Best match of choreography and performance in the final flight. It's a testament to his talent that this is considered a letdown. Note to Weir: I understand missing the bus and being not warmed up and leaving out the quad because of that. Perfectly reasonable. But at worlds you have to try the quad in the LP or shut up about it, choice is up to you.

    Buttle - I appreciate Buttle more than enjoy him. Yes, well worked out choreography, yes good spins, yes engaging personality, but the music didn't fit the skater or the costume or the whatever. (Maybe because I know what happens in the opera, inthe slow section (Delilah's big aria) a ***** is seducing a holy man, tell us Jeff, which are you trying to be?) Sloppy execution on the jumps, much worse than anything Weir did. Amazing that he gets more points for a fall on a fully rotated quad than a clean but slightly underrotated jump would get. Second place in the LP is a mystery to me.

    Rest of the field - blah, I couldn't get interested enough to comment. Some better, some worse, but nothing for me to write here about.

  2. #2
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    UK - Manchester
    Posts
    4,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke

    Van Perrin - Sloppy in places (muchos balance-checkos in his footwork) but the best he's done, really woke up the place. First real show stopper of the evening. I'm still not a fan, but I can see why some people are. First quad in competition for him I think.
    No he's landed the quad in competition a bunch of times before - he is like Lambiel in that his quad is better than his triple axel. He definitely landed the quad in both short and long at last year's worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke
    Plushenko - Has there ever been a more front-loaded choreography free program? Let's see, it opens with siix, 6, seis, sechs, sei, shest' that's SIX!!!!!!!!!! freaking jumping passes with no footwork or spins and virtually no choreography. He was OVER TWO MINUTES into the program before the first spin. Is this reflected in PCS? Don't be silly, darling, this is Plushenko. The huge crowd reaction is more due to this being the olympics and plushenko finally getting the gold than the performance itself (reminds me of scott hamilton in Sarajevo) At least I hope that's the case. PCS come from another planet as far as I can tell. Yes, I would have him first in both SP and LP but the margins have no basis in reality. This is the olympics, not a lifetime achievement award.
    Still all credit to him, he's the first ever (I think) skater to actually get the gold that eluded him in a previous olympics. I can't think of another gold contender who didn't win and then came back to win.
    And that pretty much sums it up...i could live with high marks in the skating skills and probably in the execution but for interpretation, choreography and transitions his marks should be in around the 4s if not the 3s. The PCS are supposed to be marked on the percentage of time the skater is doing those things. As you said for two minutes Plush skated around like he was on an elite freestyle patch ice session...two footed gliding and stroking to set up jumps, and jumping....for two minutes...so there's only 55% of the prgram left to do things in. Even if he skated his heart and soul out emoting and interpretting the music and put in the most complex choreo and transitions in tho the second half of his programs maxed out marks for him would be 5.5. Since he didn't i think you could make a good argument for giving him marks more around 3.5 for those categories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke
    Lambiel - A mess, for him, that's all there is to it, wins silver placing 3rd in the short and 4th(!) in the long, that's just messed up. Final spin and a jump here or there was okay but that's it. I'm hoping for better stuff for him. He wins the gold medal for hideous lp costume. Zebra/Tiger strips with blue sleeves and baggy pants leave everyone in the dust. I had to avert my eyes at times.
    Yep i thought Lambiel was shockingly bad in this LP. His 4/3/2 was better than Plush's though but everything else was bad - including the spins...except for teh final combination spin i thought Buttle, Weir, Joubert and possibly even Plushy outspun him last night.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke
    Weir - Okay, I was expecting a meltdown from descriptions and this wasn't a meltdown. It was sloppy and distracted FOR WEIR but most skaters never come close to this level of choreography and execution. Best match of choreography and performance in the final flight. It's a testament to his talent that this is considered a letdown. Note to Weir: I understand missing the bus and being not warmed up and leaving out the quad because of that. Perfectly reasonable. But at worlds you have to try the quad in the LP or shut up about it, choice is up to you.
    You know what...i have to come right out and say it - i hate Otonal! I haven't seen his original LP but Otonal leaves. me. cold. He's far too introspective in the program...and he does do projection - his SP is nothing short of breathtaking the LP...Blah. Maybe he was nervous, maybe he was still cursing the change ni bus times (!) but he made no connection during that program and the hotch potch changing of his program at the last minute did him no favours. He needs to start doing runthroughs of the program he intends to use at worlds NOW and he needs to stick to it. Is Plush going? If he is then i say get the quad in there and do the program aver and over be it with a fall on the quad or a pop out for the triple but either way stick to the damn plan and don't go mixing in a double axel for a laugh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke
    Buttle - I appreciate Buttle more than enjoy him. Yes, well worked out choreography, yes good spins, yes engaging personality, but the music didn't fit the skater or the costume or the whatever. (Maybe because I know what happens in the opera, inthe slow section (Delilah's big aria) a ***** is seducing a holy man, tell us Jeff, which are you trying to be?) Sloppy execution on the jumps, much worse than anything Weir did. Amazing that he gets more points for a fall on a fully rotated quad than a clean but slightly underrotated jump would get. Second place in the LP is a mystery to me.
    You see this is where i disagree i thought Buttle's was the only program that actually drew me in and took me on a journey. Its the only program that if that youtake out the jumps and spins, i'd still want to watch it because he moves so beautifully and easily across the ice - he hits such beautiful positions...the depth of edge and lean on that inside spread eagle near the beginning is something else. I could go on and on at great length about the merits of Buttle's skating but will spare you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke
    Rest of the field - blah, I couldn't get interested enough to comment. Some better, some worse, but nothing for me to write here about.
    I don't undersatnd the hype about Takahashi....he had one good skate on teh GP and it seems everyone had crowned him the new face of figure skating here to beat luschenko and everything. To me, he's imporved since moscow worlds but i dno't really get the fuss. Maybe he's an acquired taste and you have to watch him more than once a year to get it...it took me awhile with johnny too so i'm willing to eat humble pie on this!
    Ant
    Last edited by antmanb; 02-17-2006 at 07:59 AM.

  3. #3
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,977
    My thoughts: I only caught the end of Klimkin's program and downloaded the German version. What did Scott, Dick and Sandra say about him? Anything interesting? I don't know what to say about Ilia. I think his injury took a lot out of him and perhaps Kundravstev is influencing him too much b/c he's just not the special skater he used to be be. When he was with Rusakov, his programs were intricate with lots of choreo. Now he's using the same startegy as Plush, crossovers into jumps for the entire program. Even his SP was stripped down compared to the way it looked at Euros. Though he was injured for a long time so maybe he's just getting his legsunder him.

    KVDP
    Huge eyeroll at Dick saying that Kevin's hughe ovation was b/c the stadium was filled with Belgium fans. In the pairs competition, it was b/c the stadium was filled with Russian fans... C'mon, there's only so many fans the stadium can fill... Kevin was a lot of fun to watch.

    Evan Lysacyk: He skated great and he should have gotten bronze. Though he robbed himself by not maxing his program out with a 3 jump combo (if there was I missed it) and a quad attempt like Jeff. But he had the best program in the competition and he was his usual sharp self.

    Weir:
    I think changing back to Otonol was a bad move. I dont; know what excuse Johnny is saying with the bus and all, but he just plain forgot his program out there. It didn't even look like the program he did last year. Under Olympi stress , it's best to keep the program you have been doing all along.

    Edited to add:
    Jeff Buttle, This program sucked and he interprets music the same from program to program. Same head movements and everything. Plus this program looked emptier than his other program that he had been competing with this season. I thought Evan should have edged him out.

    Plushenko: Very disappointing. He was slow and didn't even bother selling the choreo. He was much bertter in Dormund and at the previous Olympics.

    Lambiel: What can I say. Even with that mess of a program, he still did enough to get a silver medal. That says a lot about the state of men's skating that he can win a silver. Though his tears of joy at winning the silver on the men's podium was a joy to behold. What a wonderful man. I wish he had skated well enough to win gold because he would have been wonderful to watch as the anthem played.

    Daisuke: He did more than Jeff but he was a mess. I agree with him not getting the bronze.

    Joubert: Poor Brian. Especially since he had a fun program and the fastest spins in the competition. I really like Brian's clean style of skating.
    Last edited by soogar; 02-17-2006 at 10:21 AM.

  4. #4
    Not the droid you're looking for
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Whine Country
    Posts
    609
    So far, I'm not too impressed with Olympic skating this time around. The men's event is my favorite, and I was really disappointed to see that no one skated to his potential. I was nodding off by the time NBC aired the final group.
    Placement of 4, 5 and 7 for the US men would have been wonderful anywhere else, but it's going to haunt me for a while that had Matt not made those little boo-boos, had Johnny skated a good long and Evan a good short - the placement could have been 2, 3 and maybe even 4.
    Oh, well. Congrats to Plushenko on his win, I'm wery, wery heppy for him.
    No really. I really am.
    (*sigh*)
    Rave

  5. #5
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    343
    I love Buttle's skating but his choreography irks me for some reason. His LP outfit was also very distracting. I think he is a fabulous spinner !! move over Lambiel.

    Plushy, the great bamboozler! haha. He's a great performer so he can get away with jump jump jump, arm movement, arm movement, arm movement - and it works for him somehow! I agree with Dick Button, I can't take my eyes of of him!

    Weir, disappointing, should have stuck with his LP from Nationals and should have attempted all his jumps. Why did they all look so exhausted (besides Plushenko?)

    Lambiel - disappointing

    Savoie - beautiful LP

    Evan - probably the best overall LP of the night

    Sandhu - no comment

    Sean Sawyer - another highlight of the night

    Japanese guy - messy program, but has a lot of potential.

  6. #6
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,347
    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb

    On KVP: No he's landed the quad in competition a bunch of times before - he is like Lambiel in that his quad is better than his triple axel.
    ---
    On EP:...i could live with high marks in the skating skills and probably in the execution but for interpretation, choreography and transitions his marks should be in around the 4s if not the 3s.
    ----
    on JW: but he made no connection during that program and the hotch potch changing of his program at the last minute did him no favours. He needs to start doing runthroughs of the program he intends to use at worlds NOW and he needs to stick to it.
    -------
    On JB: You see this is where i disagree i thought Buttle's was the only program that actually drew me in and took me on a journey. Its the only program that if that youtake out the jumps and spins, i'd still want to watch it because he moves so beautifully and easily across the ice

    Ant
    It was an interview with Peizerat that KVP said he did something (combo?) the first time, I assumed quad but wasn't listening closely.

    I was thinking 5's and 6's for EP's 'choreography' but you're right 3 or 4 is closer to the mark. I wonder if any judges will get a talking to for insanely inflated marks?

    Yeah, his performance last night wasn't good for him, but I was expecting a major meltdown or zamboniesque performance and it wasn't. It was just kind of blah (the whole problem, he can't afford blah, he needs to be outstanding to draw the audience in) I think Otonal was okay last year but switching lp's was a mistake (though I haven't seen the other one) as he did seem to forget the choreography (at least you notice when he departs from his choreography).

    My head understands the great stuff about Buttle but really there's no magic for me (yet), really Jeff, it's not you, it's me, no don't call .... And knowing the music too well got in the way of my enjoyment and his landings were really off, I partly blame COP for his planned fall on the quad (did he seriously think he had a chance of landing it?)

  7. #7
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    27,063
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke
    ...but (Buttle's) music didn't fit the skater or the costume or the whatever. (Maybe because I know what happens in the opera, in the slow section (Delilah's big aria) a ***** is seducing a holy man, tell us Jeff, which are you trying to be?)
    Thank you. I spent the whole time wondering what this had to do with Sampson and Delilah.

    But maybe he wasn't trying to interpret the music. Maybe he was just skating, with some pretty music playing in the background. Then it was OK.

  8. #8
    Figure Skating Is A Dangerous Sport Dee4707's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    16,616
    I was so disappointed in the men's programs. It was such a letdown. Can someone explain to me what Evgeni was doing??? I guess I don't understand why he didn't do his LP as he did at Europeans. I don't understand what he was trying to prove. He had the gold, why not give a half way decent LP. I was really disappointed in his program.

    I was disappointed in all the contender's programs.

    Dee

  9. #9
    Custom Title Ogre Mage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    493
    I partly blame COP for his planned fall on the quad (did he seriously think he had a chance of landing it?)
    Under CoP, falling seems sufficiently penalized in the SP, where there are a limited number of jumping passes, but not in the LP. I love Jeff's skating and like Stephane's, but they both had too many errors in their LPs. I would rather see a cleanly executed triple than a bunch of falls on quad attempts. I don't think the system should reward falls on quads.

  10. #10
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    UK - Manchester
    Posts
    4,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke

    My head understands the great stuff about Buttle but really there's no magic for me (yet), really Jeff, it's not you, it's me, no don't call .... And knowing the music too well got in the way of my enjoyment and his landings were really off, I partly blame COP for his planned fall on the quad (did he seriously think he had a chance of landing it?)
    Well beside the fall it was pertty much there - it was fully rotated and on one foot his weight just went back and he slipped off the heel. All he needed was a tiny bit bit more hieght or length to have just one extra moment to have a bitmore time to check and he would have been there...it wasn't a bad miss it was a near miss, better than any of the other guys who missed their quads.

    Ant
    Last edited by antmanb; 02-17-2006 at 11:40 AM.

  11. #11
    Alexei he's my MAN Panther2000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York, New York
    Posts
    225
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeKatie
    I love Buttle's skating but his choreography irks me for some reason. His LP outfit was also very distracting. I think he is a fabulous spinner !! move over Lambiel.

    Plushy, the great bamboozler! haha. He's a great performer so he can get away with jump jump jump, arm movement, arm movement, arm movement - and it works for him somehow! I agree with Dick Button, I can't take my eyes of of him!

    Weir, disappointing, should have stuck with his LP from Nationals and should have attempted all his jumps. Why did they all look so exhausted (besides Plushenko?)

    Lambiel - disappointing

    Savoie - beautiful LP

    Evan - probably the best overall LP of the night

    Sandhu - no comment

    Sean Sawyer - another highlight of the night

    Japanese guy - messy program, but has a lot of potential.

    I second your post. I was in the process of moving on Wed. & Thank God I could see the LP last night. Still no Cable though & No Internet at home DAMN.

    But, Plush's program Good God where was it. Talk about a cakewalk. There was no competition at all. So, therefore he did not need a program really. Just a few jumping passes & it was all his. & his Program Cough Cough reflected that. He did not need to do much at all. The skaters had already gave him the gold medal. All he had to do was jut showup. & that is a dam shame. The mens event was a Crap. At Least in 2002 there was an acutal men's skating event. Though the only medal up for grabs was the bronz. But, Alexei & Plush did battle eachother.

    I must say that As An American. I am very happy for Johnny W. Running his mouth just made me sick. Now, lets start with the excuses. Wah Wah Wah.:boohoo:


    I am on the other hand very happy for Evan. He I think really should have gotten that Bronze Medal. But, He really came through in the LP.

  12. #12
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    443
    The best highlights of the Men's LP was Evan's performance and Shawn Sawyer from CA. Everyone else was either falling all over the place or skating to different programs or no program at all...lol

  13. #13
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    269

    Mens LP

    Just a couple of observations......

    Johnny Weir's performance was so uninspired, it seemed he was "sleep" skating. I wouldn't be surprised if he woke up this morning saying "did I skate yet?"

    Evan redeemed himself with a wonderful long program. I hope he can get rid of his Olympic jitters and skate well at Worlds next month.

    I was disappointed in the performances of Jeff, Emanuel, Brian, etc. The pressure seems to have influenced their performances. Too bad.

    Pleshenko----well, I don't like his style of skating---I've never like it. It's too bad that he is such a great jumper because I honestly see no other redeeming qualities in his skating. My apologies to his fans. Please know this is just my opinion.

    One other comment. Did anyone notice anything interesting about the skater whom Angela Nikodinov is coaching? As I watched him skate, I couldn't help but notice that he seems to suffer a similar flaw of Angela's. It seemed that once he made a mistake, his program was doomed.

    Just my thoughts

    Dizzy

  14. #14
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,235
    How many inspiring programs are there ever at the Olympics? It seems to me there's always only a rare few. For me, the highlights were Van der Parren (though he significantly lost steam at the end), Lysachek (I'm not quite understanding all the vitriol that seems directed against him. I thought he went all out and his new program was a great choice - thank goodness he ditched that junior looking Grease thing.) and Buttle who skated a better long than he has all season and demonstrated those skating skills that I think are the best in the world. Beautiful, passionate program.

  15. #15
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,611
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke
    Strange competition, in terms of skating enjoyment I liked four programs from the third! and second! groups more than anything in the final flight ...

    Klimkin - Yay! did much better, I still don't understand why his SP score was so low. Can anyone explain. Not his best as he's ditched a lot of his more interesting stuff to get in the COP friendly elements. If he had to fall (I suppose he did) then better on the cantilever than on a jump I guess. I'm hoping that his relatively low scores are paying his dues in COP and that we'll see more realistic numbers at worlds.

    Van Perrin - Sloppy in places (muchos balance-checkos in his footwork) but the best he's done, really woke up the place. First real show stopper of the evening. I'm still not a fan, but I can see why some people are. First quad in competition for him I think.

    Lysacek - How does he pronounce his name? Is it Lee-sah-check? Anyway, well choreographed and delivered with a lot of committment. Spins a little on the weak side (yes, we realise you can stick your leg straight out in a sitspin, that's very commendable, now stop it). Was very diva-ish in the final footwork. If he gets a quad he'll be a real force.

    Savoie - Best match of choreography and performance all night. Personal favorite performance all night. Sloppy in places. Not the greatest extension in moves that cry out for it, not the greatest centering, but inventive and wonderful and please don't retire. Please. Don't. We need stuff like this (I need stuff like this). Stay in. (don't make me get tough now).

    Plushenko - Has there ever been a more front-loaded choreography free program? Let's see, it opens with siix, 6, seis, sechs, sei, shest' that's SIX!!!!!!!!!! freaking jumping passes with no footwork or spins and virtually no choreography. He was OVER TWO MINUTES into the program before the first spin. Is this reflected in PCS? Don't be silly, darling, this is Plushenko. The huge crowd reaction is more due to this being the olympics and plushenko finally getting the gold than the performance itself (reminds me of scott hamilton in Sarajevo) At least I hope that's the case. PCS come from another planet as far as I can tell. Yes, I would have him first in both SP and LP but the margins have no basis in reality. This is the olympics, not a lifetime achievement award.
    Still all credit to him, he's the first ever (I think) skater to actually get the gold that eluded him in a previous olympics. I can't think of another gold contender who didn't win and then came back to win.

    Lambiel - A mess, for him, that's all there is to it, wins silver placing 3rd in the short and 4th(!) in the long, that's just messed up. Final spin and a jump here or there was okay but that's it. I'm hoping for better stuff for him. He wins the gold medal for hideous lp costume. Zebra/Tiger strips with blue sleeves and baggy pants leave everyone in the dust. I had to avert my eyes at times.

    Weir - Okay, I was expecting a meltdown from descriptions and this wasn't a meltdown. It was sloppy and distracted FOR WEIR but most skaters never come close to this level of choreography and execution. Best match of choreography and performance in the final flight. It's a testament to his talent that this is considered a letdown. Note to Weir: I understand missing the bus and being not warmed up and leaving out the quad because of that. Perfectly reasonable. But at worlds you have to try the quad in the LP or shut up about it, choice is up to you.

    Buttle - I appreciate Buttle more than enjoy him. Yes, well worked out choreography, yes good spins, yes engaging personality, but the music didn't fit the skater or the costume or the whatever. (Maybe because I know what happens in the opera, inthe slow section (Delilah's big aria) a ***** is seducing a holy man, tell us Jeff, which are you trying to be?) Sloppy execution on the jumps, much worse than anything Weir did. Amazing that he gets more points for a fall on a fully rotated quad than a clean but slightly underrotated jump would get. Second place in the LP is a mystery to me.

    Rest of the field - blah, I couldn't get interested enough to comment. Some better, some worse, but nothing for me to write here about.
    I couldn't agree more, nor say what I was feeling last night more clearly. I would just add two things: first, that quad triple double that they showed Weir doing in practice was stunning, simply gorgeous. I hope he goes for it at Worlds. And, I hope he learns from this NOT simply get the bus schedule, but how to 'cope' with unforseen circumstances. I say this only because if he sticks around, WHICH I SINCERELY hope he does, then surely something else will happen at a future comp that will require him stepping up under duress. second: i really really love buttle's choreo/presentation and the thoughtfulness of his programs; but not seeing a clean one all season (i think) is starting to actually get on my nerves. so it's in that sense that now I am 'appreciating him' as opposed to enjoying him, yet hoping that will change, maybe for worlds.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •