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Thread: MENS LP = Lame programs?

  1. #16
    Thank God for Stephane Lambiel and Matt Savoie! shine's Avatar
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    Mafke, what a great post. I agree with you about every skater Especially Matt Savoie.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke
    I partly blame COP for his [Buttle's] planned fall on the quad (did he seriously think he had a chance of landing it?)
    I think he only planned on rotating it to get the 5 points (at least that was what NBC commentators said he was planning to do). He won Bronze over Evan by about 7 points, so it was a good move by Buttle and shows just one of the many flaws of the COP

  3. #18
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    Since I agree with almost everything Mafke and Antman said, I should probably quit while I'm ahead. But where there's a mouth, I feel compelled to put a foot in it, especially when it's mine.

    Didn't see Klimkin on NBC's stellar coverage. I heard more of Sandra Bezic than I saw of any of the skating. But was SO glad to hear from Mafke that IK did pretty well.

    Van der Perrin - The first time I've really liked Kevin. He's always seemed like a Ken doll skater to me before. Nothing bad but nothing to get interested in either. But in the LP, I was thinking, "Wow. I actually like this!" My how the COP affects some people.

    Lysacek - The first time I've like Evan at all. He's given "strong" performances of "Carmen" before, but they were, to me, all intense looks, strong arm movements, and hail Mary landed jumps. In the LP, I felt he had true core strength and used it to the max. For me, Lysaceck became the real deal for me in the Torino men's LP.

    Savoie - Mafke said, "Best match of choreography and performance all night. Personal favorite performance all night. Sloppy in places. Not the greatest extension in moves that cry out for it, not the greatest centering, but inventive and wonderful and please don't retire. Please. Don't. We need stuff like this" and I can't add a better word to it than to repeat it, except to say, "This guy, like buttah."

    Plushenko - As I quote Mafke again, "Has there ever been a more front-loaded choreography free program?" NO! This is the ickiest stuff the COP does to a skater's program, or should I say that a skater does with the COP? How sad, too, because Plushenko's got everything going for him, even Edwin Martone. Imagine how pathetic that thing would have been to the regular "Godfather" soundtrack? But then I saw Plush's choreographer and I know I'm awful to judge on looks, but maybe the guy would choreograph better if he shaved his eyebrows and could see what things looked like. Plush can really move and if he worked with and listened to a real choreographer, what a remarkable style he would have! But no. For once Bezic was right. Jumps, arms, jumps, arms for the first two minutes, then FW and spins for the last two minutes. But like Uncle Dick said, he made the judges believe it. Authority is something Plushenko has mastered. To make a word play on Mafke's, "I can't think of another gold contender who didn't win and then came back to win," I'll say, "I can't think of another gold contender who didn't win and won anyway."

    Lambiel - How I love Zee Leetle Preence, but he was a mess, right down to the multicolored zebra shirt. Still, nobody can move like that kid. A male Twyla Tharp on skates and most people watching don't even know what he is, they're just mesmerized, as they should be. But even all his spins were slow except for his last one. I think it's great that Lambiel won silver placing 3rd in the short and 4th in the long. To me that's the beauty of the COP. If you get enough lame skaters close together near the top, the least lame one comes out best, which is what happened to Lambiel. I say it couldn't have happened to a better skater. Besides, we needed somebody who just bawled during the medal ceremony. Weir gave it away in the long and Lysaceck in the short. Why not have Lambiel get the silver off Johnny's headlessness and Even's flu (I know, tough break for Evan).

    Weir - Mafke, I'm referring to you this whole post. But I love that you said about Johnny and the quad, "But at worlds you have to try the quad in the LP or shut up about it, choice is up to you." Boy, how true! He was whipping off beauties in practice. He went back to his "deer in the headlights" mode and I thought we'd never see that again. I say more in the thread "Weir missed the bus!" It's mostly about how much more demanding the COP has gotten even since last year, which is why I think "Otonal" would have left Johnny empty handed even with a good performance.

    Buttle - Mafke, you didn't get Buttle and I was thrilled with him. But I'm a choreography gal more than a jump one. Besides, I think bronze is the right place for better dancer/skater than skater/dancer. I can't think of anybody else who I would have been happy with in 3rd. I just think Buttle and Wilson are doing the things with the COP that were meant to be done with it. Plus, and I even hate to say this, he told a story. We may care more about fully rotated jumps, but the people in the arena and around the world love a story--told with good to great skating, natch. I loved Buttle in the LP. He was the only one besides Evan who, ro me, really just out and out skated. I have tremendous admiration for Plush and he works the system like hand in glove. But watching his LP while Martone made fire on the fiddle made my head hurt. The Little Prince looked like he was skating on little lambs legs. Only Buttle looked like the right man doing the right job (I wish I could tell you what I almost wrote by mistake ) and for that, the bronze was the perfect reward.

    I may prefer the skating of others (Weir, Savoie, Klimkin) when they're at their best, but I loved this podium: One prodigy crazy man (Plush); one gifted sweet little boy (Lambiel); and one dancer/skater/storyteller (Buttle). So I like variety packs.

    Anyway, ITA with Mafke and Ant about the rest. Call them, "Silence of the Lame." Whoops, almost wrote something naughty again. Bad Rgirl! Bad!

    Rgirl

  4. #19
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    mafke, please become a judge

    Mafke,

    I think most of agree with most of all that you are saying

    Please become a skating judge so someone with some sense
    will put some sense back into what is becoming a senseless
    sport.

    You are spot on in your analysis of the programs.

    And i totally agree with your WEIR comments.

    Weir's program was nowhere near meltdown. It was distracted.
    But his jumps are oh so perfectly landed and his basic skating
    is exceptional.

    I think there should be a Matt Savoie stay in skating campaign.
    Everyone should send him emails and letters, bouquets even,
    for him to remain competitive.

  5. #20
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    I was very surprised with how the men's competition went. Coming into the Olympics, with so many great men competing, I thought we were going to see amazing skating in both the short and long programs. I thought we'd see every guy come out and do his personal best--because everyone knew that's what it would take to beat Plushenko. I was expecting lots of great quads, great footwork, great skating.

    Instead it was a mess. Plushenko was the only one who even managed to skate two clean programs. Everyone else seemed to fall apart in either the short or the long (or both!). I was just very surprised. I had really expected a lot more.

    Plushenko--A well-deserved gold medal. I was so excited to see him skate so well under the pressure of being the overwhelming favorite. (Such a tough position to be in.) Granted, his long program wasn't nearly as good as his Europeans long program. And I agree the program was very front-loaded. Still, he was clearly the best.

    Lambiel--I just wish he had skated better in the long program. At his best, he can be so good. But this program was just uncharacteristically slow and even dull. Very surprising.

    Buttle--As another poster said, I appreciate Buttle but do not really enjoy him. There is just something about him that puts me off. I find his 80s hair and costume distracting. It also bothers me that he is so inconsistent technically. None of his jumps seem solid and secure. But nonetheless, his long program was probably the best performance I've seen from him. Great spins and footwork.

    Lysacek--A great performance in the long. He really showed some guts out there. A good effort. There is nothing really distinctive about Evan's skating, but I think he's a good competitor.

    Weir--I love Johnny and was very disappointed that he didn't skate his best in the long program. The amazing thing is that he is still so incredibly good, even when he doesn't skate his best. I still enjoyed his program greatly, even without the jump content that he failed to include. As someone else said, most other skaters at their best will never be as good as Johnny was in this program. It was a missed opportunity, though, and there is no way around that. I think this performance is going to haunt Johnny a bit, and hopefully in a good way. Hopefully, the painful knowledge that he had a medal in his hands and let it slip away will make him want it all the more the next time. I hope.

    Savoie--I'm so proud of him. I've always thought he was a wonderful skater, and it was great to see him do so well at the Olympics. If anything, I thought he probably should have been placed higher.

    Takahashi--I really like this skater a lot. I think he just has it all: the speed, the footwork, the jumps, the spins. Again, though, just a subpar performance in this competition, with too many jump mistakes. As with Johnny, I hope he can use this as a learning experience.

    Sandhu--What can you even say? He's had disastrous performances before, but this was the worst yet. Such a shame; like Johnny, his talent is incredible, almost off the charts. Very disappointing.

    Joubert--Just not a good competition for him. I feel like he needs to rethink his whole approach at this point. He needs to find the kind of program and choreography that will work well with COP; his current choreographic approach isn't helping him.

  6. #21
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    In my opinion Lysacek´s freeskate is the only one in the whole freeskate competition that I really enjoyed watching and will continue to watch again.

    He and Weir are my biggest favourites this season. Very different skating styles, but both styles equally pleasing to my eye. Also I like Lambiel very much and hope that he will recover from his injury soon and will be okay in coming Worlds.
    Last edited by Jaana; 02-18-2006 at 12:11 PM.

  7. #22
    Yeah! Lets get this party started. enlight78's Avatar
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    Wouldn't it be something if the top ten skaters at the olympics all had two clean skates at world. Love to see it.But it's HOPE against HOPE.

  8. #23
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=emma
    i really really love buttle's choreo/presentation and the thoughtfulness of his programs; but not seeing a clean one all season (i think) is starting to actually get on my nerves. so it's in that sense that now I am 'appreciating him' as opposed to enjoying him, yet hoping that will change, maybe for worlds.
    [/QUOTE]

    I remember when Paul Wylie was my favorite male skater but he kept falling and being passed by less interesting skaters (once driving poor Dick Button, who clearly adored him, to spluttering rage). I'm also a big Klimkin fan.
    So, by the time Buttle came around my guard was up, I've been hurt before so I'm reluctant to commit ... if he gets some clean performances under his belt then we'll see ....

  9. #24
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Emma, shine, rrgirl, kaesie

    (BLUSH) thank you, thank you thank you.

    I guess I have to watch ladies now (I don't understand anything about dance and probably won't comment on it). When Kwan was still entered I knew my nerves would never stand it (i was going to record everything and watch in the distant future. Now that Kwan's out I don't much care who wins (I'm officially rooting for Arakawa for the time being but we'll see how the SP goes) and I think I can take it.

  10. #25
    average opinionated skate fan
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    I agree with much that's been said here...

    Plushy is a brilliant technician and his confidence just exdues when he's on the ice. That being said, he has little interesting or challanging choregraphy. He's music is like an assault...disco godfather??? IMHO

    That was my big disappointment and "judge scandel" this year. How can you give that program over 80.00 points for componant scores???
    Howver, that being said, he did deserve the win and the gold medal.

    I think that Labiel is still immature in his skating even with all that talent. Him crying over seeing his flag (in any position) at the flag ceremony was one of the sweetest of the games.

    Buttle is always a favorite due to his attention to detail. He finishes off moves that others just don't think to do, there is a completeness to his skating that is very satisfying to me.

    As for the rest (and this includes some of the above, lol) it was a splatfest Olympics. I don't know why we get surprised when this happens, as it seems to happen every other olympics in one dicipline or another...nobody brings a clean skate with them to the olympics and winners are chosen with "default placings" in the mix.

    Short thoughts....

    Evan: Not a personal favorite but must be admired for his courageous skate with lots of heart.

    Kilmkin: Undermarked, and underappreciated. I hope he fully recovers from his injuries and gives the russian men a run for their money.

    KVP: Finally, the powerhouse came together.

    Sawyer: My next pic for olympic medal if he can incorporate different jumps into that great skating style.

    Eman: Which Sybil showed up this time??? #13?

    Chinese men: What happened? They are both usually challangers

    Johnny, with a quad and his skating could be the next "great one." Johnny has a problem, he lacks the bravura in his skating that he brings to his conversations.

    Matt: Way undermarked, one of the greatest skaters out there for authenticity. May have been my favorite skate of the night. I agree with so many posters...if there is one word for Matt it's "balanced."

  11. #26
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    I wasn't completely impressed with plushenko's program but it was definetely the best of the night... it wasn't the program that yagudin delivered 4 years ago... he's capable of much more. His component marks were way too high considering he did all of his jumps in the beginning of the program.
    The only programs that I enjoyed were Buttle's and Lysacek's. Jeffrey Buttle's program was the best one I've seen him perform. I love his cheoreography. He could go out and not do a single jump and still get really good marks.

  12. #27
    Tripping on the Podium
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    That men's competition is not a one to remember unless you draw a record of missed opportunities! Medalling without a triple axel or with falls in the short AND the long is a new feature that CoP allows. While the new system rewards spins, steps, choreography which is a good thing in itself, its flaws were truly enlightened. A fall on a quad earning more points than a clean triple, or components scores that have more to do with the general standard of a given skater, well ... as the judges see it, than the real performance. Actually the latter was also true under 6.0 but now it is much better disguised, you have to be a graduated statistician to split a skater's score and anyway you won't even know who gave the marks!
    By the way, as I watch pairs' and ladies' skating more closely than men's, I was surprised that the men didn't jump as high than I remember most of them would at that level. Take Joubert's axel (that he didn't land cleanly) for example. He seemed to step into his jump rather than really jump into it, just reaching the minimum height to do the 3 revolutions in the air. Skaters like Matt Savoie or Evan Lysacek had great skates, well choreographed and performed, and very pleasant to watch, but their jumps too were all in rotation speed rather than height. Is this some kind of a new trend ?

  13. #28
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    I don't know why Plushenko's six jumping passes in a row should be attributed to the affects of CoP. He did a 4/3/2 before CoP. He did eight jumping passes under OBO. He lost the GPF in the first year of CoP by doing one too many combinations, which would have been allowed under OBO. If anything, CoP rewards skaters who jump in the second half of their programs, while OBO had no such incentive. Upping the footwork coincided with Yagudin's emphasis on footwork in the pre-CoP era.

    The only difference between Plushenko's programs under CoP and OBO is in spins. Under OBO he had the Biellmann, which for health reasons he's given up recently, and like nearly every other male skater, perfunctory camel and sit spins. Under CoP, he does change-of-edges in his spins to up the level.

  14. #29
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    I agree with most of your analysis. I think Matt had the best skate of the night. I was so happy that he made it to the Olympics so that others could see his skating - so complete in all ways.
    I like Evan, but he is a little over the top in his arm movements and some of his expressions for my taste. He definitely has potential.

  15. #30
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    My thoughts: I only caught the end of Klimkin's program and downloaded the German version. What did Scott, Dick and Sandra say about him? Anything interesting?
    Yes. They recounted his medical problems over the last two years.They said his father had died several years ago, being electrocuted driving a nail into the wall of the apartment, that his coach had died of cancer, but that the old coach had not only picked the new coach, but had left a whole library of music for Ilia to skate during the rest of his career. Sort of a male version of the Angela Nikidinov story. Very, very sad. I was glad to see him skate a good LP, though.

    Several people, including Rgirl, whose choreographic opinion I always trust, said Buttle's program told a story. I very, very humbly ask you, as a choreography ignoramus, what the heck was the story???

    I fail to 'get' Buttle, other than the good looks. He as strikes me as a cute engineering student with basset hound puppy eyes and a calculator strapped to his wrist so that he can figure out on the fly what to do next each time he screws up. His best trick is his triumphant bow at the end of the program where he smiles and projects, " I done good, absolutely." even when he has screwed up and people/judges buy it. However, bad & insecure jump landings bother me a lot more than the bother COP or the judges. They make me feel insecure and unable to enjoy a program, so it is quite possible there really is a story in there...I just am programmed to miss it.

    So please tell me the story. I'm not being facetious, or anyway being less facetious than usual.

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