Why bother watching dance or ladies?

Kwanford Wife · Feb 17, 2006

Since when is being honest about flaws in the system considered negative? When my computer crashes, I don't say "well at least my screen saver is beautiful!" I say "This sucks!! Damn Microsoft! Damn them!" Is that negative or human?

When you plan to put a jump in your program that you cannot land because you will get points without any accountability for completion, there is a problem. I cannot come to work, plan a major event, hire contractors & staff, develop an execution plan and design a totally & completly unique experience while knowing that I cannot deliver. I will not get "Oh Rai! How fabulous & exquiste your design, don't worry about the execution! Your design more than made up for it!" No, I will get "Its been a pleasure working with you. Call us when your execution standards are greater... You're fired!" and I'd hazard a guess that the majority of us would get the same reaction from our bosses as well... A big part of being professional is the ability to deliver.

I'm sorry, but a beautiful spin position & cute little face will never count for more than hitting it when it counts. Unless its figure skating under the new system.

Another point, I cannot see a future for competitive skating under this new system when athletes are competiting for silver & bronze vs. gold because one skater is winning by 20 points after one phase of the competition. Where's the excitement & wow with that?!? When you watch a bball game, do you want to see a blow out or a game that's exciting and close? Skating is losing its excitement factor and will continue to lose viewership which equals $$$...

Yes, I'll watch the Ladies but only to see by how much Irinia wins by... not to see if she wins... and this year that's fine because I love Irinia & feel she deserves to win... but next year? Probably will revert to casual fan status because its boring & a bit shady.

If the judges aren't accoutable & the skaters aren't accountable, why should I care?

Engwaciriel · Feb 17, 2006

Mathman said:
Still, we can see pretty figure skating any time. The Olympics are supposed to be something special. So far, no, not so much.

Only a lot of us can't watch figure skating any time..if you don't count the low quality downloads from internet that is.. The olympics is the only time they even bother to mention figure skating in Scandinavian television.

Another point, I cannot see a future for competitive skating under this new system when athletes are competiting for silver & bronze vs. gold because one skater is winning by 20 points after one phase of the competition. Where's the excitement & wow with that?!? When you watch a bball game, do you want to see a blow out or a game that's exciting and close? Skating is losing its excitement factor and will continue to lose viewership which equals

It's hardly the only sport were people win with a lot.

I'll stick with what I said earlier, stop being so negative!

Kwanford Wife · Feb 17, 2006

Engwaciriel said:
I'll stick with what I said earlier, stop being so negative!

And I'll stick with what I said earlier, I'm not negative, I'm realistic.

Sk8n Mama · Feb 17, 2006

When you plan to put a jump in your program that you cannot land because you will get points without any accountability for completion, there is a problem

If the skater had absolutely no chance of landing it, they wouldn't put it in for exactly what happened with Takahashi's quad. It has to be fully rotated to make it worthwhile. If the skater can fully rotate the jump, then they probably can do it in practice. If they don't fully rotate it and fall, they get credit for a triple + the negative grade of execution for the fall. Takahashi got 1 point for what he did on the quad. He could have done a lot of otehr things, including upping his spins by one or two levels to get more than one point. I think it's a 'you're darned if you do and darned if you don't': people have complained that the system doesn't reward risk taking, then they complain when the system gives a skater something for taking the risk, even if they don't land the jump. Which way do you want it people?

A lot of the men didn't do what they were capable of in neither the SP or LP. That's nerves, not the judging or the system. It could have easily went the other way with Joubert, Weir, Lambiel, and others all skating clean and making it one heck of an event. Would you blame the system then? It's the Olympics, some people rise to the challenge and some falter. The Russians seem to have the knack for doing it when it counts, so they take the golds. You can't blame the CoP for that. I also think it's unfair to the Russian athletes to claim they've been given gifts after they've been clean and the others not. They did their job-they won. You also can't assume that the women will underperform just because the men did.

This thread, in my opinion, sounds like a lot of sour grapes.

JonnyCoop · Feb 17, 2006

First of all, when is the gold medallist in Dance NEVER not pretty much figured out after the last Worlds?? (OK, Lillehammer was the exception, but that's another rant entirely....). At least this season, IMO, the SILVER and BRONZE in Dance aren't decided as well; I actually think there is going to be a very exciting 6-way race for these medals, and a large part of that is due to COP. Gone, at last, are the days in Dance of 1st in Comp, 1st in OD, 1st in FD, 1st Overall; 2nd in Comp, 2nd in OD, 2nd in FD, 2nd Overall; 3rd in Comp, 3rd in OD, 3rd in FD, 3rd overall; 4th in Comp, 4th in OD.... well, you get the idea. Just because the battle is not necessarily for the GOLD does not make the overall competition any less exciting.

Same for the ladies. Yeah, Irina's considered a lock for the gold, Sasha probably a lock for the silver, but there doesn't seem to be too solid a consensus for the bronze.

Besides, by actually WATCHING the competition, dull as the idea may sound due to belief that all is preordained, psychic vision, etc, etc, you miss out on the chance to potentially see some great up-and-comers, tho admittedly as the figures were phased out, you don't just see the "next generation" at the Olys anymore, you pretty much see one or two of them every other competition or so. But still.

Jasper · Feb 17, 2006

Mathman said:
Good point about including falls on quads as part of your program. If you really took the scoring system to heart you could plan four quad-splats and really rack up the points.

How so? By doing a quad salchow fall, quad salchow fall with combination, quad toe loop fall, and quad toe loop fall with combination? That's more than a little crazy and it would not get as many points as using up the combinations with clean triple-triples or triple-double-doubles. A quad toe loop fall is still only about 5 points and you can gain more points with clean triple jumps. Plus, what if you don't complete the revolutions on a quad (like with Takahashi last night)?... uh-oh, you're screwed.

So I think one "quad splat" is sufficient strategical points-getting for one program, as Jeff proved.

Jasper · Feb 17, 2006

Vash01 said:
The best skaters won in both disciplines. The whining has begun because they were not from this continent. The gold medal winners delivered when it counted. Others did not.

Vash

But it's still disappointing seeing certain skaters rewarded for things they did not accomplish, like Plushenko with his lack of choreography/interpretation/transition, and other skaters not recieving the credit they deserve.

Plushenko deserved to win because his competitors fell apart, but not by that huge a margin. It was not even Plushenko's best skate ever (not even close), let alone the best skate in the history of the new system. The same goes for T/M. It wasn't their best skate this season let alone their best skate ever let alone THE best pairs skate ever!

Tonichelle · Feb 17, 2006

Sk8n Mama said:
Why bother watching? For guys like Evan Lysacek who gave every ounce he had in the LP. For guys like Buttle who have worked their butts off for this. For the Zhangs who Lord only knows how continued on inthe LP after that fall. For Shen and Zhao who didn't practice the SBS jumps til they got to Torino and still wowed the crowd and won the bronze. For Sasha Cohen who will try like heck to break her curse. For Emily Hughes and Kimmie Meissner who will wow at their first Olympics. For Dubreuil and Lauzon who keep working and working and moved to France just to move as much as possible in the dance discipline. Do I need to go on?

exactly!!!

SusanBeth · Feb 17, 2006

Vash01 said:
The best skaters won in both disciplines. The whining has begun because they were not from this continent. The gold medal winners delivered when it counted. Others did not.

Vash

The "whining" began when the rightful winners bored the hell out of people. I loved Yagudin. He delivered the good stuff. Plushenko and T&M delivered enough to win.

DORISPULASKI:
Don't force yourself to be positive. It's horrible for you. "Get it out of your system and then let it go" has always been my strategy. There's no point in letting things go bitter.

nicole_l · Feb 17, 2006

I kind of like to watch skating, even if the outcome is fixed. For me, it's about great skating, not medals.

Mathman · Feb 17, 2006

Sk8n Mama said:
This thread, in my opinion, sounds like a lot of sour grapes.

Is there a term for "sour grapes in advance?" I for one am willing to wait until the dance and women's skating actually happens. Then I'll start in on the sour grapes.

dorispulaski · Feb 17, 2006

Vash--

The best skaters won in both disciplines. The whining has begun because they were not from this continent. The gold medal winners delivered when it counted. Others did not.

i

Wrong. What's really bothering me this morning is Buttle being on the podium again with 2 crappy skates. And I thought Pang and Tong really deserved the bronze even though I love Shen and Zhao. Last I knew, Canada was in North America and China was not. And Savoie was lots better than Lysacek.

Of course, if it's necessary to skate with a calculator strapped to your arm, an engineering student like Buttle is a good bet to game the system the best--Mr Ski says that his best trick though is his smile at the end and his aura of Didn't I do wonderfully well? He dazzles the judges with that.

And as Joesitz said, no one is claiming the right winners didn't win. If they're complaining about the system it is mostly about the places 10 through 2.

So I'm not whining, I'm ranting. And I'm worrying about the future of a sport I've loved since watching Carol Heiss in the 1956 Olympics.

As to watching up and comers, the Olympics is not the place to see them. You see them at the Grand Prix, the Jr Grand Prix, the various nationals, Nebelhorn, Karl Schaefer, the club competitions, etc. etc. If this was the first you saw Shawn Sawyer, you missed his performance as an 11 yr old in the Toller Cranston retirement tribute. You missed his COR skate last season, too. You could have seen Emily Hughes at the Liberty Open, and before that in 2003 in US Nationals falling on every jump. You could have seen Kimmie Meissner win Jrs at US Nationals in Atlanta. You could have seen Volosozhar and Morozov at Karl Schaeffer this year and Euros last year. You could have seen Savchenko and Szolkowy at 2004 COR giving a bronze medal performance. You could have seen Dube and Davison on the Jr Grand Prix. You could do all of this through the magic of internet downloads...even years after these events...or you could have gone to summer competitions or the Grand Prix competitons.

This Olympics reminds me why I have never spent the money to go to Olympics. Too political, and too hard on the skaters for most of them to skate their best. So this isn't the best venue for the best skating IMO. Now worlds...I can't help it, I've always liked watching worlds and I probably always will. Because I do see skaters I've never seen before there...and often times someone I don't expect to will really rise to the occasion.

Sure there are Olympics that I'm sorry I missed. I would have loved to have seen the men and the pairs at Calgary. I would have loved to see the men and the pairs at SLC-so much good skating there from 6th place upwards.

This Olympics??? No. At least not so far.

mzheng · Feb 17, 2006

DORISPULASKI said:
In the men's, no one really went for it, other than Buttle and Takahashi planning to fall on a 4t . In pairs, Z&Z and I&B really went for it at least. And at least I&B managed to move up from their slotted 10th/11th, so perhaps there still is some incentive to skaters not yet on top. But not much.

It wouldn't bother me except for the part of 'No Matter How They Skate'. That wasn't Plush's best ever skate. Heck the 2002 Goebel version was better.

.

So funny.

Yeah I agree no one really went for it in men. But in pairs, aside above two teams I thought Pang/Tong also went for it. Never saw they skated like that since 2004 worlds.

mzheng · Feb 17, 2006

Mathman said:
About Belbin and Agosto, yeah the ISU boxed themselves into a corner on that one. They thought, we can safely give them a silver medal at worlds because they can't go to the Olympics anyway. Oops. Now the ISU will have to use a little more ingenuity to make it all come out right.

Hey, you 'steal' my last season's theory posted at this board. :chorus:

Mathman said:
But on the bright side, if the U.S. does not medal in dance, they will have to put Sasha on the podium.

I agree with this.

See where B/A placed after CD? 6th place! (I know, I know the spreaded margines were really small among top 6, but from this you can guess where the trend goes.)

Piel · Feb 17, 2006

For Doris

Blame it on Bush. Why can't he grow a pair and buy us some FS medals? At least Clinton :rock:

would have asked the lady judges out for drinks and tried something!

76olympics · Feb 17, 2006

Doris, I don't think you are bitter. I think your points are good. Matt was the highlight of the night. He had a complete program, he was far and away the most artistic (though I liked Shawn Sawyer too), but he doesn't get rewarded for it. It is a bit wearing.

Plushenko is a great jumper. Mentally, he does not let competition distract him as Sandu and Weir do. I am not arguing with his win. But-his artistry is ...not there. Dick is on the money with the flailing arms thing he has pointed out for these many years.

I enjoy the Olympics. But, I scratched my head over the scoring many years ago and that hasn't changed.

SusanBeth · Feb 17, 2006

Since I was the one to first use the term "bitter", I thought that I should clarify. I meant, keeping your mouth shut and faking the positive attitude can turn things bitter. Repressed resentments do not go away easily. I didn't mean that anyone in this thread sounded bitter. So go ahead and say what you think.

Vash01 · Feb 17, 2006

DORISPULASKI said:
Vash-- i

Wrong. What's really bothering me this morning is Buttle being on the podium again with 2 crappy skates. And I thought Pang and Tong really deserved the bronze even though I love Shen and Zhao. Last I knew, Canada was in North America and China was not. And Savoie was lots better than Lysacek.

Of course, if it's necessary to skate with a calculator strapped to your arm, an engineering student like Buttle is a good bet to game the system the best--Mr Ski says that his best trick though is his smile at the end and his aura of Didn't I do wonderfully well? He dazzles the judges with that.

And as Joesitz said, no one is claiming the right winners didn't win. If they're complaining about the system it is mostly about the places 10 through 2.

So I'm not whining, I'm ranting. And I'm worrying about the future of a sport I've loved since watching Carol Heiss in the 1956 Olympics.

As to watching up and comers, the Olympics is not the place to see them. You see them at the Grand Prix, the Jr Grand Prix, the various nationals, Nebelhorn, Karl Schaefer, the club competitions, etc. etc. If this was the first you saw Shawn Sawyer, you missed his performance as an 11 yr old in the Toller Cranston retirement tribute. You missed his COR skate last season, too. You could have seen Emily Hughes at the Liberty Open, and before that in 2003 in US Nationals falling on every jump. You could have seen Kimmie Meissner win Jrs at US Nationals in Atlanta. You could have seen Volosozhar and Morozov at Karl Schaeffer this year and Euros last year. You could have seen Savchenko and Szolkowy at 2004 COR giving a bronze medal performance. You could have seen Dube and Davison on the Jr Grand Prix. You could do all of this through the magic of internet downloads...even years after these events...or you could have gone to summer competitions or the Grand Prix competitons.

This Olympics reminds me why I have never spent the money to go to Olympics. Too political, and too hard on the skaters for most of them to skate their best. So this isn't the best venue for the best skating IMO. Now worlds...I can't help it, I've always liked watching worlds and I probably always will. Because I do see skaters I've never seen before there...and often times someone I don't expect to will really rise to the occasion.

Sure there are Olympics that I'm sorry I missed. I would have loved to have seen the men and the pairs at Calgary. I would have loved to see the men and the pairs at SLC-so much good skating there from 6th place upwards.

This Olympics??? No. At least not so far.

I thought Buttle's LP was pretty respectable, inspite of the fall on 4t and a hand down on the 3A. I thought he was overmarked in the SP. I would have placed Matt higher than him. I believe Buttle won the bronze only because Joubert blew it (the LP in particular) and Evan blew the SP. The chips just fell in Buttle's favor.

I would have placed Pang & Tong and Shen & Zhao higher than Zhang & Zhang (and I won't get into a debate over it again). P&T made some mistakes initially, then recovered and skated well. S&Z looked more developed, and I had no problem with their higher placement than P&T. It is possible that S&Z were given the benefit of doubt as past world champions, and Hongbo's come back from injury.

I don't feel frustrated by these disagreements. I can still enjoy the Olympics. FS is a complex sport. There is no perfect system, but I do expect the current one to get better, given enough time. No, it won't satisfy EVERYONE, but it will get better.

Vash

Vash01 · Feb 17, 2006

Joesitz said:
Vash - You should think about using the imo. Some of us have not been overwhelmed with the Russian team since the GPs so it is not surprising that we are still underwhelmed.

It is not unexpected that Russian emigres will continue to root for the mother country. Nothing wrong with that., AND I HAVE NOT READ ONE POST THAT THE RUSSIAN WINS THUS FAR WERE NOT DESERVED. I don't read whinning.

I think you are reading into this because for some posters an Oly win should bring a celebration. Well, maybe. It's optional.

Joe

I thought we were all just expressing our opinions. What is the point having to use IMO every time? I cannot commit to it. I will express my opinion, and I don't expect everyone to agree with it.

Vash

slutskayafan21 · Feb 17, 2006

The only reason I am watching the dance and ladies is to if Irina or Shizuka come through in the womens with a performance of a lifetime, no matter what the ridiculous judges do, and to see what judging farce comes up after seeing the awful judging in pairs and mens, although thankfully the right people won.

Buttle did not benefit from anybody's mistakes. Evan would have still been 4th even with a clean short, and his extreme overscoring. When you add the 9 points he gains from his mistakes in the short, and then deduct the 2 points or more he loses in PCS by skating with more polished skaters in the last flight he still falls short of Buttle's total even with all his mistakes. Joubert has never scored high enough to catch Buttle, his best long program ever is a 147+ and he would have needed a 149+ to catch Buttle. Even with all his mistakes there is nobody who could have taken the bronze from Buttle.

Why bother watching dance or ladies?

Kwanford Wife

Engwaciriel

Kwanford Wife

Sk8n Mama

JonnyCoop

Jasper

Jasper

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

SusanBeth

nicole_l

Mathman

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

mzheng

mzheng

Piel

On Edge

76olympics

SusanBeth

Vash01

Vash01

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

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