Where would Kwan have finished? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Where would Kwan have finished?

Where would Kwan have finished the competition?

  • Gold

    Votes: 56 34.1%
  • Silver

    Votes: 13 7.9%
  • Bronze

    Votes: 20 12.2%
  • No medal, but top 5

    Votes: 43 26.2%
  • No top 5, but top 8

    Votes: 16 9.8%
  • top 10

    Votes: 16 9.8%

  • Total voters
    164

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
This does not clarify whether she was "without injury" - so even with the injury they still would have put her in the top 10 just for being MK. Relatively fair in some aspects because NO ONE can "work the steps" like MK. All singles and a clean for her spiral with the fantastic foot work she throws out there, she would have received 10th at least.
All and all I am glad she did not go because Emmie did what you do to get there, you can throw all the "ifs" and "what about everything before" you want at me. When it comes down to it, still a sport that you go through steps to qualify. That should be stuck to or people will be more likely to say it isn't really a sport but a pop contest. Rather they are wrong or not, that is the reality of the public eye. Glad she tried, but Nats were not hers.
Iff she WAS totally healthy, my guess is 2nd, or put the pressure on Shi-chan to do the 3combo and possibly fell...this is just to much speculation. I cant do it.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
seanibu said:
...When it comes down to it, still a sport that you go through steps to qualify. That should be stuck to...
I think many people don't realize that the United States Figure Skating Association does have "steps that you have to go through to qualify," and they do follow their own rules and bylaws, in accordance with the specifications of the USOC, the IOC and the ISU.

The rules are: (1) The U.S. champion goes. (That was Sasha.)

(2) If there is more than one spot available (spots are earned by the performance of the previous year's worlds team -- Michelle and Sasha earned two extra spots for the U.S. by finishing 2nd and 4th at 2005 worlds) then USFC through its committee structure fills the other two spots based on such considerations as

(a) Placement at Nationals (Kimmie was second, Emily third, Katy Taylor fourth).

(b) Placement at Worlds (Sasha was second, Michelle was fourth, Jenny Kirk was 17th).

(c) Performance in other international competitions (Alissa Czisny got second at Skate America, first at Skate Canada and was the only American lady to make the Grand Prix final.)

All of these criteria were taken into account by USFS in selecting the U.S. Olympic team and its alternates.

Now, obviously there can be a difference of opinion as to whether the rules ought to be changed for 2010. Maybe it would be "more like a sport" if they had a qualifying tournament period (like they do for track and field), independent of U.S. nationals, World placements, etc.

But these are the rules as they exist.

MM :)
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
krenseby said:
Well, the thing is you have to remember that in 2004 she was 3rd in the long and the short programs and came in fourth only because of a terrible qualifying round performance. I think had she skated her SP and LP like she did in the Moscow Worlds, she would probably make it to 3rd place. I suspect if Kwan had competed, she would have displaced Sasha from the podium. Sasha's artistry only impressed the judges so much because Kwan wasn't around. Had Kwan been around, Sasha's choreography and artistry wouldn't make as much of an impression, her artistic scores would go down, and she would drop to fourth.

So with a skate like the 2005 Worlds or a little better, I imagine the following placements:

1. Arakawa
2. Slutskaya
3. Cohen

OR if Michelle's levels had gone up and her jumps were a bit stronger than in 2005 Worlds.

1. Arakawa
2. Kwan
3. Slutskaya

I do agree with you that had Kwan been in the event she and Cohen are so much closer in pure style, polish, and exquisiteness of moves, that either would not stand out as much that way as without the other, and as it turns out it would probably have hurt Cohen considering she did not stand up a couple of her jumps in the free skate anyway.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
I think that Kwan would probably been 5th (behind Suguri). Considering that without injuries her placement at 2004 Worlds was 3rd, and in 2005 4th, I don´t believe that Kwan while suffering from injuries in whole 2005-2006 season would have placed higher. Besides her experience with CoP judging has been rather insignificant..
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Oh, it just kills me to have to agree with Jaana on a Michelle thread! :) But I think it all depends on how we interpret the original question. The premise was, "if she had been healthy enough to compete..."

I think Michelle hasn't really been healthy enough to compete for some time. She was forced to withdraw form two full seasons of competition because of chronic back and hip pain, showing up only for U.S. Nationals and Worlds. The fact that she was able to win Nationals in 2004 and 2005 led people to view her slipping performances at Worlds as being just bad luck -- an accidentally not-so-hot performance at the wrong time.

Now she is limping through the COI tour as best she can. She took a day off at the Fort Lauderdale show a couple of weeks ago -- the first time ever that she has missed a performance.

So, I would have to say, yes, if she were "healthy enough to compete" she could have contended for the podium, and if she were the Michelle of old, she might have blown away the competition.

But I believe her health situation was a lot more dire than just, she suffered another groin pull at her first practice session in Torino, which might have improved by the time of the SP. :cry:
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Kwan should have won 98 Olys. She was a much much better skater than little annie rooney.

Kwan could have won 02 Olys. But what was that all about leading up to the Olys? Just weeks before the Olys, there is no coach and no choreographer. They were replaced by Kwan's father. :scratch: Nothing but speculation came out of that.

Kwan won 2003 Worlds and looked like she could still be competitive for 2006. I believe that shortly after that worked with Dean and then amid rumors of working with TT and getting down 2 3x3s her back gave in. It then happened that tweeking programs and eliminating certain jumps to save her back were on the scene.

She continued anyway and getting the bye and withdrawing from Olys was no surprise.

For the topic of this thread, Kwan did the right thing to withdraw from the Olys and not even consider Worlds.

Joe
 

Piel

On Edge
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Not only would she have won the gold in ladies but also, pairs, dance, and if Johhny would loan her a costume, mens, LOL.
 

Dee4707

Ice Is Slippery - Alexie Yagudin
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Country
United-States
Piel said:
Not only would she have won the gold in ladies but also, pairs, dance, and if Johhny would loan her a costume, mens, LOL.
......and stolen Camille from Johnny. :clap: :clap:

Dee
 

lisadotdash

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 26, 2004
Kwan

I am not a Kwan fan, never have been, but IMHO, if she would have come to the Olympics with a physical therapist in tow, not gone to the Opening Ceremonies, and kept her MOUTH SHUT she would have done it. I think she was vintage Kwan in trying to get the spotlight rather than go get the job done. Gold would have been hers.
 

Piel

On Edge
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
lisadotdash said:
I am not a Kwan fan, never have been, but IMHO, if she would have come to the Olympics with a physical therapist in tow, not gone to the Opening Ceremonies, and kept her MOUTH SHUT she would have done it. I think she was vintage Kwan in trying to get the spotlight rather than go get the job done. Gold would have been hers.

Where the heck did THAT come from???? "Vintage Kwan" is exquisite first rate skating that no one can beat be it 6.0, COP, or a triple overtime smackdown. Kwan doesn't have to try to get in the spotlight. Wherever she goes it follows her.:biggrin:
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
lisadotdash said:
I am not a Kwan fan, never have been, but IMHO, if she would have come to the Olympics with a physical therapist in tow, not gone to the Opening Ceremonies, and kept her MOUTH SHUT she would have done it. I think she was vintage Kwan in trying to get the spotlight rather than go get the job done. Gold would have been hers.

How would "keeping her mouth shut" have affected her skating? IMO Kwan was more interested in winning the gold than in anything else. She does not need to run after the spot light. She is one of the most sought after skater, whether one likes her or not.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
It is so interesting to look how different the votes are now then they were just before the Olympic womens competition. Just before the Olympic womens competition there was only 1 gold vote out of like 40 votes, very few silver votes, and most of the votes were between 3rd to 5th, with as many below 5th votes as above 3rd votes. Yet after the Olympic competitions completion the votes have continuosly pulled upwards to higher votes. While that could be coincidence, it is probably not, hindsight can change alot of opinions. ;)
 

Piel

On Edge
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
If being quiet and not seeking the spotlight helps to win the olympics Angela Nikodinov and Matt Savoie would each be three time Olympic gold medalists by now.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
slutskayafan21 said:
It is so interesting to look how different the votes are now then they were just before the Olympic womens competition. Just before the Olympic womens competition there was only 1 gold vote out of like 40 votes, very few silver votes, and most of the votes were between 3rd to 5th, with as many below 5th votes as above 3rd votes. Yet after the Olympic competitions completion the votes have continuosly pulled upwards to higher votes. While that could be coincidence, it is probably not, hindsight can change alot of opinions. ;)
Well, right after the ladies LP there was a lot of feeling along the lines of, "You call that an Olympic competition? Michelle could have beat that standing on her head!"

Sasha and Irina were especially disappointing -- it seemed like they did everything in their power to try to take themselves off the podium.

As time passed, however, I think a more middle-of-the-road view has come into play. Sure, Michelle at her best would have made mincemeat of the competition. But Michelle with chronic hip pain, a sore back and multiple groin pulls -- it just wasn't meant to be.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Piel said:
If being quiet and not seeking the spotlight helps to win the olympics Angela Nikodinov and Matt Savoie would each be three time Olympic gold medalists by now.

It seems that makes the USFSA do their best to try to bury them for many years instead, so I wouldnt say it pays off. :)
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Mathman said:
Well, right after the ladies LP there was a lot of feeling along the lines of, "You call that an Olympic competition? Michelle could have beat that standing on her head!"

Sasha and Irina were especially disappointing -- it seemed like they did everything in their power to try to take themselves off the podium.

As time passed, however, I think a more middle-of-the-road view has come into play. Sure, Michelle at her best would have made mincemeat of the competition. But Michelle with chronic hip pain, a sore back and multiple groin pulls -- it just wasn't meant to be.

Yeah I agree. Right after the competition it was probably like, "Drats why could Michelle have not have been there and been up against that. The big questions though obviously would have been her health and readiness.
 

Zuranthium

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 30, 2006
I don't know why people say that COP doesn't help Michelle's kind of skating. Her best skates would hold the record for points if the Program Component scores were given correctly.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Zuranthium said:
I don't know why people say that COP doesn't help Michelle's kind of skating. Her best skates would hold the record for points if the Program Component scores were given correctly.
I agree. But...

I think what people are mostly referring to are her comparative lack of flexibility on her spins (especially) and her spirals. She does not have a flexible back like Arakawa and Cohen, for instance. For this reason it is hard for her to do all the changes of edges and changes of positions that the CoP requires to get a level three or a level four in her spins. In fact, when she tried to do it (at the beginning of the 2004-2005 season), she ended up hurting her back and had to drop out of her scheduled Grand Prix events.

Similarly for her spiral, the CoP does not reward a beautiful, extended position with exquisite edge control as much as it does three or four Biellmann variations.

Add to that the fact that the new generation is coming along with multiple triple-triples and triple Axels -- HUGE point-getters in the code of points -- and you can see why Michelle had some catching up to do despite her glorious artistry.

MM :)
 

Zuranthium

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 30, 2006
Michelle has always been able to do change-of-edge spins in the past. If she can't get all the position changes in, it really wouldn't hinder her score THAT much...2 points at most for all of the spins combined.

I know she is definitely capable of the top-level Spiral and Step Sequences.

It would be hard to beat someone with 2 Triple-Triples and a Triple Axle. But how many women are able to do that consistently?
 
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