View Poll Results: Where would Kwan have finished the competition?

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  • Gold

    57 34.34%
  • Silver

    13 7.83%
  • Bronze

    20 12.05%
  • No medal, but top 5

    44 26.51%
  • No top 5, but top 8

    16 9.64%
  • top 10

    16 9.64%
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Thread: Where would Kwan have finished?

  1. #31
    On Edge Piel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lisadotdash
    I am not a Kwan fan, never have been, but IMHO, if she would have come to the Olympics with a physical therapist in tow, not gone to the Opening Ceremonies, and kept her MOUTH SHUT she would have done it. I think she was vintage Kwan in trying to get the spotlight rather than go get the job done. Gold would have been hers.
    Where the heck did THAT come from???? "Vintage Kwan" is exquisite first rate skating that no one can beat be it 6.0, COP, or a triple overtime smackdown. Kwan doesn't have to try to get in the spotlight. Wherever she goes it follows her.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by lisadotdash
    I am not a Kwan fan, never have been, but IMHO, if she would have come to the Olympics with a physical therapist in tow, not gone to the Opening Ceremonies, and kept her MOUTH SHUT she would have done it. I think she was vintage Kwan in trying to get the spotlight rather than go get the job done. Gold would have been hers.
    How would "keeping her mouth shut" have affected her skating? IMO Kwan was more interested in winning the gold than in anything else. She does not need to run after the spot light. She is one of the most sought after skater, whether one likes her or not.

  3. #33
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    It is so interesting to look how different the votes are now then they were just before the Olympic womens competition. Just before the Olympic womens competition there was only 1 gold vote out of like 40 votes, very few silver votes, and most of the votes were between 3rd to 5th, with as many below 5th votes as above 3rd votes. Yet after the Olympic competitions completion the votes have continuosly pulled upwards to higher votes. While that could be coincidence, it is probably not, hindsight can change alot of opinions.

  4. #34
    On Edge Piel's Avatar
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    If being quiet and not seeking the spotlight helps to win the olympics Angela Nikodinov and Matt Savoie would each be three time Olympic gold medalists by now.

  5. #35
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    It is so interesting to look how different the votes are now then they were just before the Olympic womens competition. Just before the Olympic womens competition there was only 1 gold vote out of like 40 votes, very few silver votes, and most of the votes were between 3rd to 5th, with as many below 5th votes as above 3rd votes. Yet after the Olympic competitions completion the votes have continuosly pulled upwards to higher votes. While that could be coincidence, it is probably not, hindsight can change alot of opinions.
    Well, right after the ladies LP there was a lot of feeling along the lines of, "You call that an Olympic competition? Michelle could have beat that standing on her head!"

    Sasha and Irina were especially disappointing -- it seemed like they did everything in their power to try to take themselves off the podium.

    As time passed, however, I think a more middle-of-the-road view has come into play. Sure, Michelle at her best would have made mincemeat of the competition. But Michelle with chronic hip pain, a sore back and multiple groin pulls -- it just wasn't meant to be.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piel
    If being quiet and not seeking the spotlight helps to win the olympics Angela Nikodinov and Matt Savoie would each be three time Olympic gold medalists by now.
    It seems that makes the USFSA do their best to try to bury them for many years instead, so I wouldnt say it pays off.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Well, right after the ladies LP there was a lot of feeling along the lines of, "You call that an Olympic competition? Michelle could have beat that standing on her head!"

    Sasha and Irina were especially disappointing -- it seemed like they did everything in their power to try to take themselves off the podium.

    As time passed, however, I think a more middle-of-the-road view has come into play. Sure, Michelle at her best would have made mincemeat of the competition. But Michelle with chronic hip pain, a sore back and multiple groin pulls -- it just wasn't meant to be.
    Yeah I agree. Right after the competition it was probably like, "Drats why could Michelle have not have been there and been up against that. The big questions though obviously would have been her health and readiness.

  8. #38
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    I don't know why people say that COP doesn't help Michelle's kind of skating. Her best skates would hold the record for points if the Program Component scores were given correctly.

  9. #39
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuranthium
    I don't know why people say that COP doesn't help Michelle's kind of skating. Her best skates would hold the record for points if the Program Component scores were given correctly.
    I agree. But...

    I think what people are mostly referring to are her comparative lack of flexibility on her spins (especially) and her spirals. She does not have a flexible back like Arakawa and Cohen, for instance. For this reason it is hard for her to do all the changes of edges and changes of positions that the CoP requires to get a level three or a level four in her spins. In fact, when she tried to do it (at the beginning of the 2004-2005 season), she ended up hurting her back and had to drop out of her scheduled Grand Prix events.

    Similarly for her spiral, the CoP does not reward a beautiful, extended position with exquisite edge control as much as it does three or four Biellmann variations.

    Add to that the fact that the new generation is coming along with multiple triple-triples and triple Axels -- HUGE point-getters in the code of points -- and you can see why Michelle had some catching up to do despite her glorious artistry.

    MM

  10. #40
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    Michelle has always been able to do change-of-edge spins in the past. If she can't get all the position changes in, it really wouldn't hinder her score THAT much...2 points at most for all of the spins combined.

    I know she is definitely capable of the top-level Spiral and Step Sequences.

    It would be hard to beat someone with 2 Triple-Triples and a Triple Axle. But how many women are able to do that consistently?

  11. #41
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuranthium
    It would be hard to beat someone with 2 Triple-Triples and a Triple Axle. But how many women are able to do that consistently?
    A little bit off topic on this Michelle thread, but that's the main thing that I look forward to checking out in the coming season. Kimmie did two triple-triples -- once in her career. She also did a triple Axel (sort of) -- once.

    Mao Asada does have a fairly reliable, if not 100%, triple Axel, but does she have anything else?

    Slutskaya, Arakawa, Cohen, Meissner, fine skaters one and all. Among them they won four World championships. Michelle won five. IMHO, we will never see her equal.

    MM

  12. #42
    Lovin' the Kween ... Now and Forever
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    I'm just chiming in on this one for the first time.
    My feelings right after the competition ... and even moreso now ... are that this ironically could have been Michelle's best chance at the gold. In '98 and '02 she was unlucky enough to compete against two teenagers who gave their skates-of-a-lifetime on that one night. But in Torino the winning performance was a 5 triple (3/3 less) program. I'm of the belief that had she not reinjured herself that day, she could certainly have delievered at least a 5 triple inspired program. Of course we can never know for sure, but this one haunts me.

    And I am bewildered about the talk of her spiral not being able to compete with those of a Sasha or Shizuka. MK's COE is by far the best I have ever seen. She has speed, strength of edges and beautiful postitions. I think the reports we got from the test skate were that her spirals were at a level 4 ... and even some of her spins for that matter.
    I'll take Michelle's gorgeous spiral anyday, over someone grabbing their skate and yanking their foot up to their head. Call me crazy!

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    A little bit off topic on this Michelle thread, but that's the main thing that I look forward to checking out in the coming season. Kimmie did two triple-triples -- once in her career. She also did a triple Axel (sort of) -- once.

    Mao Asada does have a fairly reliable, if not 100%, triple Axel, but does she have anything else?
    Well Mao Asada is the best jumper right now, imo. In addition to the Axel, she is very gifted with doing Loop jumps...she can almost to do a Quad Loop. Her best program would probably be:

    3Axel/2 Toe/2Loop
    3Axel
    3Lutz/3Loop/2Toe
    -----(halfway point)-----
    3Sal/3Toe/2Loop
    3Flip
    3Lutz
    2Axel

    I'd like to see Kimmie try this as competition:

    3Flip/3Loop/2Toe (I'm not sure if she can do that....)
    3Axel
    3Lutz/3Toe/2Loop
    ----(halfway point)----
    3Flip
    3Lutz
    3Sal
    2Axel/2Toe/2Loop

    ASADA would still be ahead by 2.3 base points but perhaps Kimmie will mature into a more artistic skater than Mao does and be able to win on PCS points.

    I wonder if Mao can do a Quad Toe, however. Adding that in would pretty much shut the door on everyone else.

  14. #44
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Before she can try a quad toe she first has to learn to do a triple toe. Strangely enough, this is the jump that gives her the most trouble. She pre-rotates it so much that it turns into a toe-Axel. The reason that she started putting loops on the end of her combos is that her toe loops were being downgraded. This seems to be a serious flaw in her basic technique on this element. I am not sure if it can be corrected at this point.

    That 3A/2T/2Lo that you put in her program would be a challenge, because the middle jump might be downgraded to a single for pre-rotation.

    The other jump that she can't do is the Salchow. She did not have a triple toe or a triple Salchow in last season's LP.

    In particular, that 3Sal/3Toe/2Loop combo you are giving her -- I don't think so.

    About the loop, yes indeed, that's one she can do. Her LP last season (by the time of Junior Worlds) had 3Lo, 3Lo+2Lo+2Lo, 3F+2Lo, and 3Lz+2Lo.

    Fortunately for Mao, the CoP does not reward a skater for presenting all the triples, nor is there a penalty for tacking a bunch of double loops onto every element, so she should score well despite having an incomplete jump arsenal.

    On the other hand, if she can do 3A+2Lo and solo 3A, that gives her a big boost out of the box.

    MM

    PS. BTW, I think you can do only one three-jump combination.
    Last edited by Mathman; 07-14-2006 at 09:50 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    PS. BTW, I think you can do only one three-jump combination.
    I wasn't aware of that...oops. It's a good rule, though. I actually think it should be amended even further to say that any jump past the second has to be different from the one that preceded it...so no 2Toe/2Toe or 2Loop/2Loop at the end of a jump -- it must be a mix.

    That's so weird about the 3Sal and 3Toe for Mao. Watching her 3Flip/3Toe combination again...yeah, that's a wonky 3Toe. She just barely misses the 2.75 rotations. I always knew it looked weird but I had to see the slow-mo to realize it was not correct.

    Surely she will get those jumps for next season? It would be the weirdest thing ever not to be able to perfect them when you can do a beautiful 3Axle and 3Lutz/3Loop combination.

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