A sad skate of affairs...

No matter who you're a fan of, bullying is out and out, wrong. It's pretty easy to spot. If it happens, it should be taken care of. Especially, if it is perpetrated by a mod.

As a nonfan, let me say that I can care less what Kwanfans think of Kwan. They're Kwanfans for a reason. A devoted fan usually continues to like a person even after his/her career is over, or like a team even when they're not playing well. Otherwise you've got bandwagon jumpers, better known as fair-weather fans.

I do agree with Piel that the atmosphere has turned increasingly volatile between Kwanfans and Nonfans. But there has to be a reason for this. It all boils down to this: my opinion is right and if you don't agree with me, you're a *** or a troll.

However, one thing Piel forgot to mention is that the forum is significantly larger now than it was back in the day. I think back in 02 when I joined (and GS was on EZboard), GS had around 800 members. Now it has over 6,000. Also, the amount of contributing posters (regular posters) has increased significantly. Back in 02 there weren't too many regulars, and I feel this led to a closer "family" type of feel for this forum. Now, I feel GS has done a very good job of maintaining this, but I think a reason for the increased hostility is that we might have more active Nonfans posting.

GS, as I see it, has ALWAYS had a Kwanfan majority. I can confirm this because I did indeed pick up heat for something I said about Kwan and 03 nationals, which I won't re-hash.

I think as the Nonfans started getting more vocal, that's when the fights really began. Face it, no matter how tolerant a fan appears to be, at some point or other they're going to lose their cool if enough is said about their fave in an unfavorable tone. I know this from experience (being a basketball fan). The only way to be truly objective is if you just don't care about the sport at all. Once you develop any kind of vested interest, you automatically become biased.

So what to do? I've noticed something very interesting on these internet boards. I believe GS has ALWAYS had this problem. But why is it NOW that it's so apparent? I think it's the following.

I believe that when a board is first opened, the first few members make up a certain demographic. This kind of sets the tone for the board, as later on, potential members will often "lurk" to get a feel for the climate of the board before joining. A certain "attitude" develops where a certain opinion might be shared by the majority of the members of the board, and minority opinions are almost always going to be disputed. I think this is what happened with GS. There probably was a lot of Kwan fans coming here when it first opened up, and this set the tone of the board forever.

Also- I recall many Kwanfan posters were saying that they come to GS because they didn't like the climate of MKF. I also feel that GS offers more "wiggle room" for arguments and disputes. This allows Kwanfans and Nonfans to really go at it with minimal intervention from the moderators. If a similar outbreak happened on other forums, the topic probably would be closed before things got out of hand.

But I like GS for this very reason: you have much more freedom of speech than you do at other skating forums. That's the primary reason I like it here so much. But on the flip side, when you have strong discussions going on that are virtually unmoderated, fights are going to break out. And I think now that we have more vocal posters, these fights are more frequent than ever before. I've been here for four years, have had the same opinion and stance, and have NEVER seen the climate here THIS volatile. But I KNEW it was only a matter of time before it happened, because GS was always like this. As a forum gets larger, its problems tend to be magnified by that much. So what I'm basically saying is that this is not a new issue. It's just a bigger one now because we have a bigger forum.

Remember, it's all JMO. A lot of this is speculation and I realize I could be wrong about some things.

Red Dog that was a very nice post and also very accurate I think. Let me add that "back in the day" most posters at GS tended to be older (that's why Toni is our baby). We now have a lot of younger posters. OTOH when I think about it most of the bigger fights here have been between older posters, LOL. Does anyone have any new forum guidelines they would like Paula and the mods to consider that might improve things?

Personally, I don't think it is fair to see having younger posters a member of the board as such a bad thing. Sure, some teenagers can be immature, and not have the most intelligent opinions, but that doesn't mean that we're all teeny-boppers that don't have anything to say besides "OMGZ jonny weir is SOOO cuteee". I'm not at all saying that all posters feel this way, but certain posters often return to the statement that younger posters are detrimental to the board's mature discourse of this magnificent sport. I think part of what makes this board interesting is the varied backgrounds of the different members who all have different points of view on the sport.

I'm fourteen, and I don't think it's fair to put all teenagers in this umbrella category of 'immature' posters.

CDMM I agree. Like I said most of the fights are among the older posters. Some of our younger posters often make the wisest and most mature observations.

gsk8 said:

Y'all are entitled to your own opinions of course Just know that I stand 100% behind the moderators. They have a thankless and difficult job in trying to keep the entire forum a comfy place for everyone.

Guidelines have been established. They ain't perfect, but I doubt you'll find a board that is. Neither are the mods, but they don't act individually when it comes to enforcing the guidelines. It's a team effort.

We take all circumstances into consideration before we make a decision. Be it right or wrong, it's our decision.

Mods don't owe anyone opinions - except to me.

Nutshell: Don't like it? Go elsewhere.

Click to expand...

Especially after RGirl's clarification re the Morganlee banning situation, it sure sounds to me like that was a well considered, group effort and decision.

The fact remains that one moderator in particular seems to be bullying posters on a regular basis, and it appears that the bullying is based on some sort of personal bias. And apparently that's acceptable. It's your board, and it's completely up to you whether that's OK or not. I've tried to contribute in a positive way to this board over time. I know I have my "bad days" just like everyone else. But there is no reason on earth in my mind to tolerate this type of bullying on an on-going basis.

I have enjoyed my time on Goldenskate, but I will exercise the "Nutshell" option.

Thanks and best wishes to all,

Doggygirl

show 42 said:

I appreciate everyone's comments and concerns, but come on.......there are threads on "The Edge" and the "Olympics" that have at least 25 skaters or pairs being discussed at this moment. Why is this considered an MK board? If you don't want to hear or discuss her at the moment, click onto a thread about someone else.................42

Click to expand...

ITA. Why open a thread about a skater you don't like or have no interest in reading about. I think it would solve some problems.

CDMM1991 said:

Personally, I don't think it is fair to see having younger posters a member of the board as such a bad thing. Sure, some teenagers can be immature, and not have the most intelligent opinions, but that doesn't mean that we're all teeny-boppers that don't have anything to say besides "OMGZ jonny weir is SOOO cuteee". I'm not at all saying that all posters feel this way, but certain posters often return to the statement that younger posters are detrimental to the board's mature discourse of this magnificent sport. I think part of what makes this board interesting is the varied backgrounds of the different members who all have different points of view on the sport.

I'm fourteen, and I don't think it's fair to put all teenagers in this umbrella category of 'immature' posters.

Click to expand...

CDMM1991, I have to say that if you are only 14 years old that you are wise beyond your years. You are very articulate for your age and this shows that young people should have their two cents worth.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

CDMM1991 said:

Personally, I don't think it is fair to see having younger posters a member of the board as such a bad thing. Sure, some teenagers can be immature, and not have the most intelligent opinions, but that doesn't mean that we're all teeny-boppers that don't have anything to say besides "OMGZ jonny weir is SOOO cuteee". I'm not at all saying that all posters feel this way, but certain posters often return to the statement that younger posters are detrimental to the board's mature discourse of this magnificent sport. I think part of what makes this board interesting is the varied backgrounds of the different members who all have different points of view on the sport.

I'm fourteen, and I don't think it's fair to put all teenagers in this umbrella category of 'immature' posters.

Click to expand...

CDMM, you are simply awesome. I was amazed when you first said you were only 14. You have a very bright future, and I am looking forward to whatever montages you create in the future, and also more pics and updates from your own skating!!

DG

If the mods have a problem with a poster I believe the mods should use the PM system to discuss it with the poster rather than try to correct them openly on the board. I also believe that mods have a higher degree of accountability in posting as in setting an example of others to follow. I know that personally if one of the mods calls me on something I take it harder than if it was another general poster. Kind of being yelled at by the teacher. I realize that the mods do have a thankless job and I appreciate all of you.

CDMM, let me give you a word of advice. If you have something to say, don't be afraid to state your opinion or be silent. In my generation you were told "speak when you are spoken to and not before".And "children should be seen and not heard". I taught my boys, now young men, that if you have something to say, say it, don't be intimindated by anyone else. If you have something to say, your voice should be heard and don't let anyone tell you any different.

Three cheers for CDMM

Piel said:

If the mods have a problem with a poster I believe the mods should use the PM system to discuss it with the poster rather than try to correct them openly on the board. I also believe that mods have a higher degree of accountability in posting as in setting an example of others to follow. I know that personally if one of the mods calls me on something I take it harder than if it was another general poster. Kind of being yelled at by the teacher. I realize that the mods do have a thankless job and I appreciate all of you.

Click to expand...

Please forgive the interminable length of this post, too long even for Rgirl (1,255 words). Piel, I think you have an excellent point. However, as far as I know, most of the mods always do make the first contact with a "problem poster" via PM. Of course, mods are human too--that's why we love 'em --and occasionally they will post something, probably out of sheer frustration and the stress of their jobs, just like most of the rest of us.

IMO, there is one mod who regularly openly antagonizes or "corrects" posters in the forum rather than via PM. If I were one of the mods--and we can all thank the stars I'm not --the ones who don't bully posters on the board, usually either for no reason or with replies that are far out of proportion compared to what the poster said, I'm sure I would be quite frustrated that one of my colleagues was behaving that way and there was nothing I could do about it.

What I do wish is that the mods who don't accost posters on the forum for little or no reason as well as Gsk8 would take the comments in this thread seriously--separating the wheat from the chafe, of course--rather than dismissing them. Of course I can only speak for myself, but I love GS as much as anybody else associated with it. And from what I know of the people who have posted constructive criticisms here, i.e., folks such as you, Piel, they love GS too.

The "fun" days on GS were back when the board only had 150 to 200 members, with perhaps only 10 to 20 people who posted regularly, that is, from three times a week to daily. We all knew each other and knew how far we could go with jokes and games. Remember when I started the "Say Something Silly About Michelle Game" for Kwan fans only? I hope you do since you swept the gold, silver, and bronze medals. Among those who were there, who could forget your, "Who needs a triple-triple when I have my spiral-spiral?"? It still kills me --in a good way.

I think GS is having the typical problems of urban or suburban sprawl. However, GS still has the same moderating system as it did when it only had, at most, somewhere between 600 and 1,200 members. Gsk8 did a great job in choosing the mods and we've all acknowledged how much we appreciate the mods in doing all the work of their thankless jobs as best they can. But are four, perhaps five (I'm just not sure if Justin is still a mod), active mods enough to handle a 6,000-member board? Or are we asking too much out of too few people who are, after all, volunteers?

Gsk8 noted that there are threads about 25 different skaters right now. I'm sure that's true. However, as I think those of us who post regularly know, it's the threads about Michelle, Sasha, and Irina that get up to as many as 300 posts, in which posters tempers rise, and where the inequity in the ratio of Kwan fans to nonKwan fans among both posters and mods becomes a problem, IMO. Whether there are four or five mods (I'm just not sure if Justin is still a mod or not), three of them are ardent Kwan fans. It would be inhuman to expect them to always go against their personal feelings, although I know one of the Kwan fan mods tries very, very hard to be fair to fans of all skaters and especially watches himself when the problem is between Kwan fans and nonKwan fans.

However, lest we forget, even back in the "golden" days of Golden Skate, some posters went nuts and started attacking others willy nilly (and I don't just mean She Who Shall Not Be Named). And there were more than a few others who blew up and left, usually as a result of tensions between Kwan fans and nonKwan fans or those who liked Michelle but liked a skater such as Irina or Sasha better. One of the mods made things worse, IMO, by posting several times that it was the fans of Irina, Sasha, and Tara (Tara? Yep) who were causing all the problems on GS. This only made things worse between Kwan fans and nonKwan fans.

To their credit, some such as Shine, Bronzeisgolden, NYMKFAN, you Piel, and others tried to mend the damage by reaching out to fans of other skaters, but the mod in question and certain Kwan fans apparently reveled in starting or promoting altercations between themselves and primarily fans of Irina and/or Sasha. With a mod supporting them plus their superior numbers, Kwan fans inevitably began running the forum. As I said, some reveled in their superior status and thus ability to run nonKwan fans off the board, and I don't mean trolls, whole others were embarrassed by the behavior of their fellow Kwan fans.

Of course nonKwan fans behaved badly too, but because they were in the minority of posters and the majority of mods were heartfelt to starry-eyed Kwan fans, on the whole they were treated badly also. However, all thanks and acknowledgment go to those posters who extended themselves in positive ways to nonKwan fans, as well as one mod in particular who did the same--you know who you are. Unfortunately, those who tried to maintain a positive though feisty atmosphere on GS--I certainly don't support an "all friendly" board; I just don't support arguments that regularly become vicious because of an increasing number of posters with the support of and egging on by one mod of the same mindset.

Anyway, my main point is, GS will never be able to have the kind of ambiance it had in the past because it's gone from being a small town to a large city. GS now has almost 6,000 registered members--5,984 as of this writing. Maybe Mathman will calculate the percent increase in members since this time in 2002 when, as I said, GS had somewhere between 150 and 200 members, or thereabouts.

In summary, there are serious problems on GS involving, IMO, too few moderators having to deal with too many posters, even though I have no doubt the mods are trying their absolute best; there is a moderator whose behavior has prompted a number of posters to leave GS and caused both very angry and negative feelings between the nonKwan posters he antagonizes and those certain Kwan fans who may feel they are vindicated in attacking nonKwan fans; these problems have been increasing exponentially over the last year, although they've been around since about summer of '02; and the powers that be have chosen to ignore the problems with the statement, "If you don't like it, go elsewhere." Those of us who recognize the problems may indeed go elsewhere, but the problems will remain until GS actually becomes a Michelle Kwan fan board. What a sad skate of affairs that indeed would be.

Thanks for your input, Piel. Here's hoping the better angels of all our natures, to steal from the best--posters, mods, and Gsk8--will prevail. I'll end this with a quote by someone who can make his point far more cogently than I:
"Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment. - Barry LePatner"

Rgirl

P.S. CDMM, you rock!

I really couldn't take the time to read all of that. I don't know what she said, but it couldn't have been THAT bad, I'm a member of much worse forums than this. Actually, this is the most serious one I've ever been on. It's wierd.

I don't think this forum has gotten out of hand. Not even close to the real Michelle Kwan Forum AND Sasha Fans. But I'm all for preventing that Goldenskate not get anywhere near that.

I'm more so a MK fan but lately, reading MKF puts me in the most sour mood.