Dance - FD (finals)...wheeee!!!! | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Dance - FD (finals)...wheeee!!!!

Nmsis

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
JonnyCoop said:
This whole assertion is so outrageous I don't even know where to start. Do not even get me started on US Federation power vs. French federation power UP UNTIL THE TIME THE FRENCH FEDERATION GOT BUSTED IN SALT LAKE CITY.

Also, do not make me do a rundown of comparitive French dance results vs. American dance results from about 1987 till 2 or 3 years ago. The French have had a lot more good results in this department than the Americans have, and I do not for one minute believe that the French have been robbed in this category right and left and held down year after year. Yes, the French by and large have had better dancers. But, with the exception of the screw jobs that seem to be done on Deloebel & Schoenfelder the last few seasons, they've had some pretty good success.


Please, don't be outraged. I'm open to other's view. I will expose to you what I think and then you can answer me where you consider me wrong. Let's just be constructive.


I think figure skating world is done that way. 2 real powerful federations (the one in the US where the figure skating industry stands and the historic and enormous russian one). The others are light weights. And ice dance is definitly a matter of weight ... and trade. The US federation wasn't counting in the ice dance world before because it wasn't interested in ice dancing before.


Let me present you a little history from the french side.

In the 70', a guy named Gailhaguet was skating. He thought that the way the french skaters were marked was unfair and that they weren't be rewarded as much as their talent was deserving it (since mid 60'). He considered the problem was: lack of lobbying.
So at the end of the 80's, when he began to be an established trainer, he began to do lobbying. For Surya... and for Philippe Candeloro and the Duchesnays. And the french began to make results. Maybe not gold but they were on the podium (and I don't think they were overmarked). So successfull Mister Gailhaguet became president of the French federation. And he continued to lobby.... As much as big federations and everyone who had a good athlete. But you know, it helps to be big. The judges undermarking athletes, judges' alliances were nice sport and nobody complained (yes, figure skating is still a sport... the athletes do believe that, so do I).
In 2002, there were a very good canadian pair and the northern american medias adopted them. They proclaimed that the canadians were the best... but the canadians didn't win (I prefered the canadians that night but I think the russians deserved to win the previous Worlds - for me, they are even). So the medias got angry. They decided to look "under the carpet" (and I think that, behind curtains, everyone knows about the others manoeuvres, so it was easy to find something) and successfull Mister Gailhaguet got caught (the 4 other judges who placed Salé/Pelletier 2nd were released of all charges). The usual silence about the figure skating habits was broken. Gailhaguet was crucified for the press' biggest pleasure. The french federation was demolished (it still is, unable to support our dance team). And our french dancers who were the center of the "plot" ... won with global approbation. (Yes, it's weird we had to plot for making them win as everyone recognised they were the best. It would be laughable if it wasn't that tragic). After that, the carpet was put back and everything continued as ever.

It still is.

You want to know about french ice dancers who were robbed. We had 4 great couples since 1987.
First, the most robbed, the one who have "revolutionned" ice dance: the franco-canadian Duchesnays. 2nd to Klimova/Ponomarenko ever. Without them, ice dance would have stayed the unevolutive classical thing it was in the 80' . They were robbed more than once.
Second, Moniotte-Lavanchy. They never could get the gold even if I think they deserved it once. In 1998, they were let down by the french federation who put all its support to Marina and Gwendal. Their usual results was at least in the top 3-4. Abandonned or "traded" as they said, they finished 11th at the Olympics (I think such a fall was a first in the ice dance history).
Third, Marina and Gwendal in 1998. Their Romeo and Juliet was gorgeous. They were better than the second couple, Krylova-Ovsianikov and they were put in the 3rd place. Being that good, Krylova-Ovsianikov tried their best to maintain them behind (and they really did it with Carmen).
Fourth, ... yesterday night.

So the history of robbed french ice dancers is quite long since 1987. But they are not alone. You can count in the lithuanians and some others. Were americans robbed ? They weren't even there (except the russian-american couple but they weren't at podium level, and they were "old"). And their federation wasn't giving a damn about them.

After the 2002 "events", the french medias gave a look at that strange thing that figure skating is (usually, they don't even give a look at figure skating but the smell of scandal ...). And Candeloro, the most natural and direct guy I know said in an interview:
"Gailhaguet now has a bad reputation but I want to thank him, even if we have had disputes. Because without him, I would never had the chance to get my results. A little french guy. Nobody wanted me on a podium. He was the one who made it possible. So I won't spit on him now." He thanked Marie-Reine LeGougne for having supported him too. I think he was couragious to state that as everyone was condemning Gailhaguet, trying not to be blown by the scandal. I still don't like Mister Gailhaguet.

I know this opinion can be raw but it's mine. For me, it's not "one federation did something bad ! Bouuuuh ! It's "that's how the system works ... and I don't like that !" I tried to express it without being hurtfull to anyone. Please, answer as well.
 

Nmsis

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
And the most funny thing about the jury after this interesting article of the globe and mail.
Yesterday night, Stéphane Bernadis phoned to Philippe Candéloro to tell him to look at the jury's composition: the russian federation president's wife and the bulgarian federation president were members of the jury.

I definitly love ice dance juries :rofl: (
 

STL_Blues_fan

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
I feeel the French had the most innovative dances in the last couple of seasons. Yey, they ended up fourth even with the major OD shakeup.

I haven't seen their compulsories, how did they do? Any major mistakes?

I hope they medal in Calgary.
 

RubyNV

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Something's rotten in Turin! The judging, maybe?

:mad:

What on earth were the judges looking at in last night's free dance? Belbin and Agosto are favorites of mine, but Tanith made two big errors in the free dance!
That should have dropped them down out of the medals. Drobiazko and Vanagas, Gregory and Petukov, and Delobel and Schoenfelder had by far the most interesting dances, which they skated very well. Their numbers were pretty, and in the case of the French team, particularly inventive. I agree with the gold medal placement for the Russians, who skated great, but not with the silver and bronze placements. Grushina and Goncharov did not deserve the bronze.
Their dance was boring, to say the least, and was not skated at the level that many of their fellow competitors were skating at.

Also, I must say that we don't really need to see almost every free dance having the same elements. That's for the compulsory dance!! The free dance needs to be made free again. Without creativity, and with almost every dance looking nearly identical, why should anyone even bother watching?? The fact that the French team was able to work some creativity into the evening, should have counted for more. I don't like the gyno-lifts and the ridiculous-looking swing-out lifts where the guys were swinging the women out by one arm in dangerous lifts without proper support. Those moves are very ugly. Also, enough already with the skates pulled up to the back of the head!!!
 

sk8m8

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Dear Nmsis...thanks for your detailed and precise statement of your opinion ( and your statement that it was your opinion)

We've had some trolls making outrageous statements about skaters and fans that are nothing but conjecture and they've been a pain to explain the difference between what a fact is (T&B win silver) and opinion ( I think T&B deserved/did not deserve to win)

It's so nice to see someone who is both knowledgable about the sport and has the specificity to explain your point of view. Welcome to the board.

Lastly, the sweetest words I've heard at this olympics..."It's only a sport" Ben to Tanith in the K&C awaiting their marks. If only it were...
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
If I were only judging choreography, I would place the top teams as follows:

Delobel & Schoenfelder
Denkova & Stavijski
Drobiazko & Vanagas
Navka & Kostomarov
Grushina & Goncharov
Belbin & Agosto

However, I also felt that Del & Sch's skate did not really live up to the choreography. They did all the elements and steps, but unfortunately their skate left me cold. If I were rating teams by emotional impact, I'd rate them as follows:
Drobiazko & Vanagas
Denkova & Stavijski
Navka & Kostomarov
Belbin & Agosto
Grushina & Goncharov
Delobel & Schoenfelder

BTW, Del & Sch did come in 2nd in free skate, so one could argue that their choreography was ultimately rewarded.
 

Nmsis

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
sk8m8 said:
Dear Nmsis...thanks for your detailed and precise statement of your opinion ( and your statement that it was your opinion)

It's so nice to see someone who is both knowledgable about the sport and has the specificity to explain your point of view. Welcome to the board.


Thanks, sk8m8. It's nice to hear something gentle. :)
I like the constructive discussion, not the pointless barking... And I definitly love ice dance.

To finish about this free program, I'd like to propose one interpretation of the ice dance competition.

The OD was not a big shake up. If you consider only the free dance and the original dance, the overall result is the same as the final result. Del/Schoen didn't fall of the podium because of the compulsories. The compulsories were just the big shot on everyone's head to prevent everyone from noticing the real "construction" of this podium.

If you consider the ranks, to compare with Belbin Agosto.
B/A are 2th of the original dance and 4th of the free dance
Del/Schoen are 4th of the original dance and 2th of the free dance
Even considering the 7th (completly undeserved with a real crash in the marks) place for Del/Schoen and the 5th place for Tanith/Belbin, the compulsories have always been minor in regard of the free dance.

This is not to prove that Del/Schoen were better. That's to show that ranks didn't really matter in this competition. The real important thing to look at is the marks, where the difference in point is made and if it was justified. I also consider that B/A should have been first of the original dance so it is impossible to say: "they should have been 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ... of the competition" because the judgements of the 3 programs have been rotten.

I just can say that I don't think G/G deserved to be on the podium and I'm not sure that N/K should be either (she certainly could but he certainly doesn't deserve it nor does their free program). In fact, the ones I would probably keep on the podium are Tanith and Belbin (even if I was not thrilled by their free dance) but on which step ? I don't know ? And I doubt the judges would let me reschedule the Olympics.
 

JonnyCoop

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2003
Nmsis:

First of all, I would like to apologize for my rather harsh reaction to your post last night. I do appreciate your insightful response to my rant, and I intend to answer with a bit of a rebuttal as soon as I get a chance to really sit down and read it in-depth, which hopefully will be sometime over the next 24 hours. I am dealing with a death in the family and any post that requires some analysis and legwork (as my response to your post will involve a bit of) is going to take a little longer as opposed to just shooting stuff off the top of my head, which is what I did last night. I am telling you this not as an excuse for the tone of my post, which again I apologize for, but as an explanation as to why I haven't responded to your answer appropriately just yet. I try to avoid shooting my mouth off in such a fashion on this board, but occasionaly it slips out anyway, even under the best of circumstances, and again, I apologize.

[I am posting this on the thread as opposed to sending you a private message because I am rather getting the impression that a couple of other people thought I was overly obnoxious as well and would therefore like to indirectly apologize to them as well]
 

bili

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Nmsis said:
.

I just can say that I don't think G/G deserved to be on the podium and I'm not sure that N/K should be either (she certainly could but he certainly doesn't deserve it nor does their free program). In fact, the ones I would probably keep on the podium are Tanith and Belbin (even if I was not thrilled by their free dance) but on which step ? I don't know ? And I doubt the judges would let me reschedule the Olympics.

My thoughts exactly, Nmsis. Navka is ok, but I can't for the life of me believe that he got an Olympic Gold Medal, an honour that has been awarded to skaters like Gwendal Peizarrat or Christopher Dean -for crying out loud!-before him.
I accept the results because you can't just overlook the mistakes my favorite couples(Denk&Stav and Del&Schoen) made in the CD nand OD , but if the final result of the competition depended only on the FD, my ideal podium would have been the Bulgarians, the French and Drobiazko&Vanagas.
 

Nmsis

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
bili said:
you can't just overlook the mistakes my favorite couples(Denk&Stav and Del&Schoen) made in the CD nand OD.
If I agree that Denk/Stav has made minor mistakes at the CD (but not more than B/A), had an OD which wasn't the best (but their FD was a pure wonder), where do you find that Del/Schoen have made a mistake ?

Their CD was perfect. The "globe and mail" article said they were the best along with the canadians and I definitly agree with that. Their OD was not the top one but still a very good one (4th place minimum). And their FD was a thrill. So I don't really get what I can't overlook about Del/Schoen. If you have seen the whole competition, could you tell me where you consider them to have made a mistake. I wonder if I missed something. It's not always easy to be objective towards your own athletes.:p
 

bili

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Nmsis said:
If I agree that Denk/Stav has made minor mistakes at the CD (but not more than B/A), had an OD which wasn't the best (but their FD was a pure wonder), where do you find that Del/Schoen have made a mistake ?

Their CD was perfect. The "globe and mail" article said they were the best along with the canadians and I definitly agree with that. Their OD was not the top one but still a very good one (4th place minimum). And their FD was a thrill. So I don't really get what I can't overlook about Del/Schoen. If you have seen the whole competition, could you tell me where you consider them to have made a mistake. I wonder if I missed something. It's not always easy to be objective towards your own athletes.:p

I am sorry Nmsis, I just didn't express myself right. First of all, I meant mostly the mistakes the Bulgarians made, and second, I got the feeling that Del&Schoen's OD was not a very medal winning performance (with or without mistakes). However, both teams, with FDs like that, they should definitely be on the podium. That 's what can definitely not be overlooked and I never get how can a couple with 3 OK/but nothing special performances (like N&K) get away with gold, while 2 couples with inspired and breathtaking performances land in 4th and 5th place. It's a shame.
Don't be mad, I am with you!
 

Nmsis

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
bili said:
Don't be mad, I am with you!
I wasn't mad at all. I was really wondering if there was something I missed. When I like ice skaters or performance, I want to see if someone else does agree. Bias or, in that case, chauvinism without self-noticing is something I'd like to avoid. Ranks in ice dance are often a matter of taste (quite subjective). So it's quite difficult to know what is a problem of taste and what is real problem.
 

dnd11174

Spectator
Joined
Feb 24, 2006
Jaana said:
In my opinion Denkova & Staviski had the best freedance performance and Belbin & Agosto the second best. About Navka & Kostomarov I would say that they have an excellent technic, but otherwise the whole performance left me totally cold. It lacked feeling.

I also enjoyed Kerr & Kerr and Delobel & Schoenfelder very much.
:clap:
 

bili

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Nmsis said:
I wasn't mad at all. I was really wondering if there was something I missed. When I like ice skaters or performance, I want to see if someone else does agree. Bias or, in that case, chauvinism without self-noticing is something I'd like to avoid. Ranks in ice dance are often a matter of taste (quite subjective). So it's quite difficult to know what is a problem of taste and what is real problem.

I hear you, and I agree on the subjectiveness.
I 've got to say that as far as ice-dance is concerned, I am getting a bit confused. I don't like conspiracy theories and I would certainly love to believe that medals at least in the Olympics, are well-deserved, but this week all I hear is people (including myself) saying how wrong it all was..How is it possible that the judges have such a different view on the whole FD? Is everyone crazy when they say that Den&Stav and Del&Schoen deserved something more and that N&K are nothing special? I don't think so..
 

dnd11174

Spectator
Joined
Feb 24, 2006
bili said:
I hear you, and I agree on the subjectiveness.
I 've got to say that as far as ice-dance is concerned, I am getting a bit confused. I don't like conspiracy theories and I would certainly love to believe that medals at least in the Olympics, are well-deserved, but this week all I hear is people (including myself) saying how wrong it all was..How is it possible that the judges have such a different view on the whole FD? Is everyone crazy when they say that Den&Stav and Del&Schoen deserved something more and that N&K are nothing special? I don't think so..

First of all ,please, accept my excuses for couldn't express myself well in English. I have a simple answer to your questions. Ask yourself where the hell is this country Bulgaria:mad: ? How big is it? What kind of people live there? When you find the answers, you'll find that it's a little country, with simple people and nobody cares how talanted people from this country are. This country is not like Russia, USA, Italy, France. Nobody protects this country.So why would anybody give them a medal. Where is the finance interests. Who are the judges? This is the world! Like it or not! So, for the spectators the only thing left is to enjoy the ice dance and to support the favourite dancers, but not with prejudice leaded by national interest, but leaded by the heart!
detail.html
 

isyssa

Spectator
Joined
Feb 24, 2006
Wow, how true. It's really sad how such talent from countries such as bulgaria and lithuania is ignored. This is really sad. And how true is that beauty has no national boundaries, all my favorite skaters are from different countries. I have national pride, but in the end it's all about the skating. That said, I really hope albena and maxim continue to skate for some time. They r the only ice dance team that could bring me to tears.
 

dnd11174

Spectator
Joined
Feb 24, 2006
isyssa said:
Wow, how true. It's really sad how such talent from countries such as bulgaria and lithuania is ignored. This is really sad. And how true is that beauty has no national boundaries, all my favorite skaters are from different countries. I have national pride, but in the end it's all about the skating. That said, I really hope albena and maxim continue to skate for some time. They r the only ice dance team that could bring me to tears.

:clap:
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
So I don't really get what I can't overlook about Del/Schoen

???
Almost all of the 'I liked it' stuff falls into the choreo, perf & execution segments of PCS. Unfortunately, the judges are still using them as a block of place holders.

However, in appreciating ice dance scoring (as opposed to personal taste), it's worth noting what items have always been considered important (old and new scoring system) Watching B & B's 1988 Killian or T &D's 1984 CD's is a complete education on how CD's should be done. All of today's skaters are deficient in this regard compared to the old timers.

1. Timing...are they on the beat? Or do they cover up timing problems by skating to music without a beat? (B&A have always had excellent timing)
2. Speed, flow, and depth of edges. (Raw Speed really became supreme under Gritshuk and Platov. Ability to demonstrate a variety of speeds was more valued in T&D's day.
3. Do they skate close together?
4. Do they use a variety of hand holds or just skate holding hands? This, and closeness, and speed are great strengths of B&A.
5. Can they portray a variety of rhythms-D&S's OD with him dressed as the karate kid did not exactly scream Latin Rhythms very well.
6. Quality of stroking & knee action-there is a particular dance asthetic here that I am not up on, but those that know seem to dislike Isobel's. The Bulgarians are particularly good here.
7. In the CD's, is the pattern precise? Did they repeat it exactly? If they skate the pattern faster, the pattern is bigger, generally thought to be a good thing.
8. Unison, matching leg line (a great strength of N&K)


That given, I'd have had the Bulgarians higher, G&G lower, and DelSchoes lower but with good PCS. I'd have had B&A and N&K right where they landed in the end. But I would have had B&A first in the OD, without doubt. Their rhumba smoked! And their chacha actuallly had correct portrayal (which it didn't at Skate America). I don't have as big opinion of their salsa, which I guess is supposed to be a samba without samba rolls...I'm not sure what it's supposed to look like.
 
Top