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Thread: Fumie's technical score was lower than Sasha's

  1. #1
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    Fumie's technical score was lower than Sasha's

    Even with the falls, for which Sasha got around 6 (!) points. It's been said before, but I really don't like how the new system allows you to rack up a lot of points by falling.

    Why exactly does Sasha get more on the PCS?
    Last edited by cell; 02-23-2006 at 08:41 PM.

  2. #2
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    Cohen's base score was 57.5, the highest base score of any skater in the free skate. (Arakawa's was 57.3). Cohen attempted and rotated seven triples, more than any women in the top 10. The next highest attempted and rotated triple count was five.

    Cohen's total TES was 55.22. She lost 7 points on three flawed jumps, not including 1 fall point. She gained back 4.72 points with high GOEs on other jumps, her spins, her footwork, and her spiral sequence. She had three L4 spins, one L3 spin, an L4 spiral sequence, and an L2 footwork sequence. When the fall deduction is taken, she had virtual TES of 54.22, which was slightly better in total than Suguri.

    Suguri's base score was 53.2. Although she lost -1.25 total on three flawed jumps, she gained 2.28 over base, to end with 54.23 in TES. Suguri had one L4 spin, three L3 spins, an L3 spiral sequence, and an L2 footwork sequence.

    Cohen earned 1.58 points higher in PCS than Suguri, which, when multiplied by 2 (factor for Ladies' free skate), gave her a 3.16 point advantage in PCS.

    The details are here:
    http://www.nbcolympics.com/results/1501425/detail.html

    Even if Cohen had gotten no credit for the fall -- the hands down on the 3F was not called a fall -- which would have gotten some credit under 6.0 (a single, I believe), and no credit for the hands down -- which also would have gotten credit under 6.0 -- when you deduct the -1 fall deduction from the 5.64 she received for the two opening jumps, the 4.64 difference was still less than her lead over Suguri in the SP.

    If you look at Slutskaya's protocols -- Slutskaya also finished ahead of Suguri in the free skate -- she attempted five triples, fell on one, had a flawed 3F which received negative GOE.
    Last edited by hockeyfan228; 02-23-2006 at 09:56 PM.

  3. #3
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    Ridiculous scores!!!

    Once again, the judging was scandalous. Shizuka was wonderful and clearly deserved her gold medal. Fumie Suguri clearly deserved the silver medal, but instead, was placed fourth behind Sasha and Irina who both skated poorly.
    Fumie did a clean skate and a nice, gentle program. Sasha and Irina fell--Sasha twice--yet came out ahead of her. We must insist that judges judge only what is actually happening out there on the ice AT THAT TIME!!! Reputations, previous results, etc., must be meaningless to them, or they won't judge properly. Falling on your rear end or on your hands isn't artistic or athletic. I suspect that Sasha's ridiculously inflated scores were just to keep the U.S. from getting shut out of the medals. The main cheating is still coming on the "artistic presentation" scores, now called "program components". Figure skating, to be viable, must be a sport, first and foremost. The way to fix this problem to some extent would be to make the technical scores count for more--at least 2/3 of the final total--maybe even 7/8 to try to stop the cheating.

    I have a special hatred of the weird obsession with spiral sequences. How did they get such clout? For one thing, more and more skaters are doing very well done spirals, many of them now pulling one leg up like a flamingo, and even letting go of the skate at that point to increase the difficulty level. I am tired of seeing almost everyone doing basically the same move. For another thing, why is displaying your crotch to the world considered a beautiful artistic move? If the ladies have bodysuits on, it would at least not look like a desire to display the
    panty portion of their skating dresses to the world (and by the way, a lot of the ladies are wearing what look more like thongs under their dresses). I am rather creeped out by the extended spirals of Sasha and others. I think she does this because the craze for spiral sequences started with Michelle Kwan, who was so highly ranked. People would rave about her spiral sequence, even though it always was skated exactly the same. I was really, really sick of seeing it!
    There are a lot of skating moves that are being neglected these days. Bring some of those back and ditch the spiral sequence as a requirement. Variety is so much more interesting. Let's see more emphasis on doing jumps out of fancy footwork.

  4. #4
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
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    I have to disagree with Ruby:
    At first I thought Fumie wuz robbed, too. But the protocols tell the tale. This isn't the 6.0 system anymore, in which, I think Fumie would have gotten the silver. You don't 'count the falls' anymore'.

    I have no problem with the spiral sequence getting credit. I enjoy the fieold moves getting recognition. However, I think I would rather see it as a 'field move' sequence than simply spirals. That ina bauer of Shiza's was gorgeous. I would like to see more of that and some nice spread eagels get as much credit as the spirals.

    What I want changed is the 'catch foot increases the spin level'. I think 'catch foot' on a spin or change of edge should get you a higher grade of execution but not necessarily increase the level of the spin. I skated many moons ago and did catch foot spins and bielman spins quite easily. They have a lot more to do with natural flexibility than skating ability. I got 'bored with bielmans' last night and too many changes of edge make the spins look ugly. I'd rather see a perfectly positioned layback over a bent-leg bielman anyday.

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    Well I thought Fumie was robbed until I saw her program. Sasha tried more triples than any of the ladies and her program was the best choreographed. Plus Sasha was into her program and skated it very well. Fumie was clumsy on some of the spins and this program was not as well skated as it was at Japanese Nats. I still think Fumie did enough to win a bronze medal. She had more choreo than Irina and skated with her heart. I know that a bronze medal would have meant the world to Fumie.

  6. #6
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    Just a question about Fumies jump. where did the -1 come from on the 2nd Lutz, (and also some other jumps..) I think she does the most beautiful lutz and flip and deserves plus...anyone who knows more about technique that fell like explaining this to me?

    I'm also ery happy to see that here last spin got +2 from some judges, without any bielman or leg up 'till your head position. I just love it when they end their spins with a real fast spin (ok, don't know what they type is called) like Fumie did...

  7. #7
    Rinkside
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    i do see how fumie got lower marks based on her technical, but i still think she deserved silver or bronze (i wish she stuck with one of previous longs, since they were more passionate and not as dreary as this one). the whole new system is good in that it rewards details but i think in this instance, it does not reward the overall. fumie skated a program with minimal and far less obvious mistakes than sasha or irina. and it may sound bitter, but i think you can still judge technical by considering the skater's reputation... like for fumie, some of her levels are alittle low, and she didn't get as high of grades of execution but there's no way they will not give irina a medal. sasha is often injusticed by the system but this time it was very generous. but this is coming from someone who really wanted fumie to do well since she was robbed 4 years ago with 2 great programs but just bad luck with the draw.

  8. #8
    Custom Title Ogre Mage's Avatar
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    Under the 6.0 system, Fumie probably would have been on the podium. However, both Sasha and Fumie landed 5 triples. But Sasha attempted 7 triples while Fumie attempted 6. Under CoP you get points (with a deduction) if you fall as long as it is fully rotated. The quality of her overall program was so-so, especially compared to Sasha. The choreography was bland, didn't reflect the music particularly well and had very little in the way of transitions -- she was basically stroking around from one element to the other. That was reflected in her PCS. Per the protocols, her spins and spirals were mediocre quality and of lower difficulty than Sasha and Irina. These are just as important as the jumps in the new system. While one might disagree with the CoP system, she was scored fairly based on the current rules. Don't forget too that Sasha and Irina had about a 5 pt. lead on Fumie going into the free.

    We should not discount the political aspect, however. Fumie has not been on the Worlds podium since 2003, while Irina and Sasha were 1-2 last year. Also, Shizuka was basically a lock for a medal at that point and The Powers That Be probably didn't want two Japanese ladies on the podium unless Fumie was spectacular, which she wasn't. One could argue it was a close call between Fumie and Irina and in the end the judges favored the reigning World Champ.
    Last edited by Ogre Mage; 02-24-2006 at 01:29 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubyNV
    Once again, the judging was scandalous. Shizuka was wonderful and clearly deserved her gold medal. Fumie Suguri clearly deserved the silver medal, but instead, was placed fourth behind Sasha and Irina who both skated poorly.
    Fumie did a clean skate and a nice, gentle program. Sasha and Irina fell--Sasha twice--yet came out ahead of her. We must insist that judges judge only what is actually happening out there on the ice AT THAT TIME!!! Reputations, previous results, etc., must be meaningless to them, or they won't judge properly. Falling on your rear end or on your hands isn't artistic or athletic. I suspect that Sasha's ridiculously inflated scores were just to keep the U.S. from getting shut out of the medals. The main cheating is still coming on the "artistic presentation" scores, now called "program components". Figure skating, to be viable, must be a sport, first and foremost. The way to fix this problem to some extent would be to make the technical scores count for more--at least 2/3 of the final total--maybe even 7/8 to try to stop the cheating.

    I have a special hatred of the weird obsession with spiral sequences. How did they get such clout? For one thing, more and more skaters are doing very well done spirals, many of them now pulling one leg up like a flamingo, and even letting go of the skate at that point to increase the difficulty level. I am tired of seeing almost everyone doing basically the same move. For another thing, why is displaying your crotch to the world considered a beautiful artistic move? If the ladies have bodysuits on, it would at least not look like a desire to display the
    panty portion of their skating dresses to the world (and by the way, a lot of the ladies are wearing what look more like thongs under their dresses). I am rather creeped out by the extended spirals of Sasha and others. I think she does this because the craze for spiral sequences started with Michelle Kwan, who was so highly ranked. People would rave about her spiral sequence, even though it always was skated exactly the same. I was really, really sick of seeing it!
    There are a lot of skating moves that are being neglected these days. Bring some of those back and ditch the spiral sequence as a requirement. Variety is so much more interesting. Let's see more emphasis on doing jumps out of fancy footwork.
    I must totally disagree with you. I thought the judges got it almost perfectly right in the LP. Suguri did not deserve the silver medal. While she skated more or less clean, it was not an inspired performance, and as others have already pointed out, her content was simply not up to that of the top three. Cohen did not have two falls. She had one fall and one bad landing. She tried more triples than anyone else. She had far better spins and spirals than Suguri. Her choreography was the best of the night, IMO. In spite of her problems at the beginning of the program, Cohen sold her skate with beautiful transitions and great heart. Suguri ran out of steam at the end quite noticeably and was much more robotic (by the way, I'm a fan of Suguri and thought she was totally screwed at the last Olympics, but not here.)

    Also, the gold was decided by both a short and long program, not just the long. Cohen and Slutskaya were both signficantly ahead of Suguri after the short.

    As for the importance of the spiral sequences, I happen to love them (though something does have to be done about the abundance of ugly catch-foots.) What spirals display is speed and flow over the ice and quality of edge and position. I think they are a legitimate display of skill.

  10. #10
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    Cohen touched down with two hands on the ice on her second jump. I consider that a fall, even though she may not have outright splatted on her rear.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    Cohen's base score was 57.5, the highest base score of any skater in the free skate. (Arakawa's was 57.3). Cohen attempted and rotated seven triples, more than any women in the top 10. The next highest attempted and rotated triple count was five.

    Cohen's total TES was 55.22. She lost 7 points on three flawed jumps, not including 1 fall point. She gained back 4.72 points with high GOEs on other jumps, her spins, her footwork, and her spiral sequence. She had three L4 spins, one L3 spin, an L4 spiral sequence, and an L2 footwork sequence. When the fall deduction is taken, she had virtual TES of 54.22, which was slightly better in total than Suguri.

    Suguri's base score was 53.2. Although she lost -1.25 total on three flawed jumps, she gained 2.28 over base, to end with 54.23 in TES. Suguri had one L4 spin, three L3 spins, an L3 spiral sequence, and an L2 footwork sequence.

    Cohen earned 1.58 points higher in PCS than Suguri, which, when multiplied by 2 (factor for Ladies' free skate), gave her a 3.16 point advantage in PCS.

    The details are here:
    http://www.nbcolympics.com/results/1501425/detail.html

    Even if Cohen had gotten no credit for the fall -- the hands down on the 3F was not called a fall -- which would have gotten some credit under 6.0 (a single, I believe), and no credit for the hands down -- which also would have gotten credit under 6.0 -- when you deduct the -1 fall deduction from the 5.64 she received for the two opening jumps, the 4.64 difference was still less than her lead over Suguri in the SP.

    If you look at Slutskaya's protocols -- Slutskaya also finished ahead of Suguri in the free skate -- she attempted five triples, fell on one, had a flawed 3F which received negative GOE.
    thanks for the break down...

    Sasha's program and Shizza's were beautiful... I adore Fumie and have since at least 02 (not sure exactly when I first noticed her lol), but the LP was less than inspired... and she was very scratchy on her strokes and edging... she wasn't in the ice or the program

  12. #12
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    Mixed Feelings

    I have very mixed feelings about this. I think a clean program should count for something and it doesn't. I agree that falling on a jump should put it to 0 for points. I would have put Fumie on the podium but on the other hand, keeping Irina off the podium would have broken my heart into a million pieces. So maybe the right thing happened after all. I feel terrible that a skater like Fumie hasn't been rewarded adequately over the years. Ogre Magre I understand your points and don't really disagree with what your saying in your post.

  13. #13
    Custom Title Ogre Mage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyla2
    I have very mixed feelings about this. I think a clean program should count for something and it doesn't. I agree that falling on a jump should put it to 0 for points.
    I agree that a clean program should count for something and a fall should be a zero. I probably would have put Fumie on podium. But based on the current rules, I can certainly see the argument for her in 4th place. She skated well, but I had a lukewarm reaction to her overall program.
    Last edited by Ogre Mage; 02-24-2006 at 04:26 PM.

  14. #14
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    Suguri did a good job. She just didn't have an Olympic caliber program.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyla2
    I have very mixed feelings about this. I think a clean program should count for something and it doesn't.
    How do you define clean? Suguri had a faulty landing on the 3T and no flow out of her 2T's in the last two combinations. Do you mean fall-free?

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