Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 17

Thread: Question about points

  1. #1
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    30

    Question about points

    I understand why Shizuku Arakawa got higher points than Sasha on
    jumps. (even though she, too, doubled elements)...

    I DO NOT UNDERSTAND why she got higher points than Sasha
    on choreography, steps, transitions, spins...etc...

    Could someone explain this?

    In other words, the only area where she should have exceeded
    Sasha was in juumps.

    Putting the two programs together, Sasha should have been
    way ahead on total points.

    Sasha's basic skating is lightyears ahead of the others just
    as Plushenko's jumps are far beyond his peers.
    So she should have been rewarded for that and had a large lead.

    This just shows that skating is still biased towards jumps
    and that the COP system does NOT work.

  2. #2
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    520
    Shiza delievered a beautiful smooth performance. Where did you feel Sasha deserved way more points? She might have deserved slightly more for interpretation and she got it. The second mark is no longer a subjective straight artistic number. It's based on transitions, choreography, skating skills, and execution. Sasha had some moments into jumps that were straight crossovers with no linking footwork, her choregrapy was about equal to Shiza, her skating was a little chpoppier than usual while Shiza was smooth, smooth.........Shiza also delivered on the spirals and the spins. Sasha has great spirals but that held high free leg of Shiza's was phenomenal, too.

    Sasha Cohen was not robbed of anything. She's darned lucky they were using CoP instead of 6.0 or she might have been off the podium. I thought the judging was much better than usual for the entire Olympics.
    Last edited by Sk8n Mama; 02-24-2006 at 11:13 AM.

  3. #3
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Uppsala, Sweden
    Posts
    207
    On thing I don't understand though is why did Fumies jump get -1 instead of a lot of plus....I realise her spins aren't as difficult as the medallists are, but I do believe har Lutz and Flip are just georgeous..(even though she doubled one of them)...and I still think she's undermarked in the PCS...

  4. #4
    Mr. Michelle Kwan Spirit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    426
    Although Shizuka clearly deserved the gold, there is no way her spins were better.

    She had four camel spins during the program and they were all weak (the leg was not raised very well, and at one point was even sagging below horizontal), and they all transitioned into exactly the same position (grabbing the skate blade). Zero variety.

    When I heard that her spins had been graded higher than Sasha's and Irina's, my jaw hit the floor. I find that absurd.

  5. #5
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Uppsala, Sweden
    Posts
    207
    well, axactly how much variety does Irina have in her spins (and spirals...)

  6. #6
    Mr. Michelle Kwan Spirit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    426
    Quote Originally Posted by Engwaciriel
    well, axactly how much variety does Irina have in her spins (and spirals...)


    So Irina's spins are also all the same. She still does them better. Sasha -- way better.

  7. #7
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    30

    sasha redux

    Upon replaying my vcr of the competition, I can say, even more emphatically that I am again mesmerized by Sasha's
    approach to the ice - her stroking, her levity, floating edges,
    swift and effortless spins etc...

    Again, i see the only area where Arakawa could beat her
    would be in the jumping area...and not by much since
    Arakawa doubled some jumps and didn't deliver the goods,
    although she did not fall. Her approach to the ice is steady,
    and somewhat heavy. Look at the first three strokes of her
    program and how her free leg dangles, isn't stretched...

    (Remember Kerrigan doubling her triple - that was what lost
    her the gold in Lillehammer...)

    Anyway, Sk8tnmama wrote that I must be an American fan
    of Sashas. Quite to the contrary, I am a former world
    competitor in ice dancing from Europe and a fan of
    great skating be it Chinese, Russian, American, Canadian or French...etc...You get the point.

    And as a skater who competed at the elite level, let me say
    that the only other competitive singles skater in Sasha's league was John Curry.

    So, if Olympics is a jumping competition - by all means give it to Arakawa.
    But if it really is supposed to also be about spins, transitions, choreography and the like, then Sasha should not only have been WAY AHEAD in the short program,
    but still beaten Arakawa because of her strengths beyond the jumps and deductions which should have been made on Arakawa's spins, transitions and doubled jumps.

    That's my opinion...but also why there is an entire judging PANEL. Everyone sees it differently. I'm seeing it from the pov of having done it... And I to Sasha...and to Mr. Nicks. (My goodness, between Tai & Randy and Sasha...he's quite the extraordinary coach - along with Tarasova and Moskvina...The BIG THREE)

    As Dick Button said, "I'll take the 2 mistakes for the rest of the program..."

    Enough said...


    ...

  8. #8
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    182
    Quote Originally Posted by kaesie
    Upon replaying my vcr of the competition, I can say, even more emphatically that I am again mesmerized by Sasha's
    approach to the ice - her stroking, her levity, floating edges,
    swift and effortless spins etc...

    Again, i see the only area where Arakawa could beat her
    would be in the jumping area...and not by much since
    Arakawa doubled some jumps and didn't deliver the goods,
    although she did not fall. Her approach to the ice is steady,
    and somewhat heavy. Look at the first three strokes of her
    program and how her free leg dangles, isn't stretched...

    (Remember Kerrigan doubling her triple - that was what lost
    her the gold in Lillehammer...)

    Anyway, Sk8tnmama wrote that I must be an American fan
    of Sashas. Quite to the contrary, I am a former world
    competitor in ice dancing from Europe and a fan of
    great skating be it Chinese, Russian, American, Canadian or French...etc...You get the point.

    And as a skater who competed at the elite level, let me say
    that the only other competitive singles skater in Sasha's league was John Curry.

    So, if Olympics is a jumping competition - by all means give it to Arakawa.
    But if it really is supposed to also be about spins, transitions, choreography and the like, then Sasha should not only have been WAY AHEAD in the short program,
    but still beaten Arakawa because of her strengths beyond the jumps and deductions which should have been made on Arakawa's spins, transitions and doubled jumps.

    That's my opinion...but also why there is an entire judging PANEL. Everyone sees it differently. I'm seeing it from the pov of having done it... And I to Sasha...and to Mr. Nicks. (My goodness, between Tai & Randy and Sasha...he's quite the extraordinary coach - along with Tarasova and Moskvina...The BIG THREE)

    As Dick Button said, "I'll take the 2 mistakes for the rest of the program..."

    Enough said...


    ...
    The only questionable judging for me came in the Short Program. On that night Sasha should have blown the field away on points based on the overall quality of her magnificent performance. She was the Short Program Champion that night and I wish they gave golds for the SP.

    That being said as much as I love both Sasha and Irina at the end of the day I prefer to see the Olympic Champion crowned with no falls in her program like the elegant Shizuka. Her win was well deserved.

  9. #9
    Skating Freak Barbie
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    1,489
    Quote Originally Posted by kaesie

    Sasha's basic skating is lightyears ahead of the others just
    as Plushenko's jumps are far beyond his peers. .
    I think Sasha's "basic skating skills", in terms of speed, stroking and edging, are light years BEHIND both Slutskaya and Arakawa. Choreographically, flexibility, spirals/spins, yes, she may edge them both out, but not in basic skating.

  10. #10
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    520
    Upon replaying my vcr of the competition, I can say, even more emphatically that I am again mesmerized by Sasha's
    approach to the ice - her stroking, her levity, floating edges,
    swift and effortless spins etc...

    Again, i see the only area where Arakawa could beat her
    would be in the jumping area...and not by much since
    Arakawa doubled some jumps and didn't deliver the goods,
    although she did not fall. Her approach to the ice is steady,
    and somewhat heavy. Look at the first three strokes of her
    program and how her free leg dangles, isn't stretched...
    You're entitled to your opinion-but a panel of twelve international judges and a lot of skating fans (yes, many of whom were also skaters-myself included) disagree.

    I'm sorry but this:
    let me say
    that the only other competitive singles skater in Sasha's league was John Curry
    in my opinion, is over the top. It's hard to read your comments objectively when you include statements like that.

  11. #11
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    Quote Originally Posted by kaesie
    I understand why Shizuku Arakawa got higher points than Sasha on
    jumps. (even though she, too, doubled elements)...
    and who fell on her jumps? duh.

    I DO NOT UNDERSTAND why she got higher points than Sasha
    on choreography, steps, transitions, spins...etc...
    Both had excellent choreography. I think Sasha's was better, but the music does not have the soaring swells of Turando. No one ever loses with Nesum Durme.

    In other words, the only area where she should have exceeded
    Sasha was in juumps.
    Shiz matched Sasha in the Spiral sequence and showed innovation with the 'No Hands Y chage edge spiral'. sasha could have done that, I am sure, but it was Shiz's innovative move.

    Shiz's No Hand Y Spiral will be up for grabs next year, especially in Juniors. Watch of Sasha and Alissa to copy.

    Joe
    Last edited by Joesitz; 02-25-2006 at 06:42 PM.

  12. #12
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    902

    Joe

    If Sasha had skated cleanly, Nesum Durme would have lost.

  13. #13
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    Kyla - Don't beg me to use a movie cliche to answer that.

    We all have our opinions. With the poor skate of Irina both Ladies , Sasha and Shizuka had a chance for gold. Only one could make it. Over and out.

    Joe

  14. #14
    mylastduchess
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by kaesie
    Upon replaying my vcr of the competition, I can say, even more emphatically that I am again mesmerized by Sasha's
    approach to the ice - her stroking, her levity, floating edges,
    swift and effortless spins etc...

    Again, i see the only area where Arakawa could beat her
    would be in the jumping area...and not by much since
    Arakawa doubled some jumps and didn't deliver the goods,
    although she did not fall. Her approach to the ice is steady,
    and somewhat heavy. Look at the first three strokes of her
    program and how her free leg dangles, isn't stretched...

    (Remember Kerrigan doubling her triple - that was what lost
    her the gold in Lillehammer...)

    Anyway, Sk8tnmama wrote that I must be an American fan
    of Sashas. Quite to the contrary, I am a former world
    competitor in ice dancing from Europe and a fan of
    great skating be it Chinese, Russian, American, Canadian or French...etc...You get the point.

    And as a skater who competed at the elite level, let me say
    that the only other competitive singles skater in Sasha's league was John Curry.

    So, if Olympics is a jumping competition - by all means give it to Arakawa.
    But if it really is supposed to also be about spins, transitions, choreography and the like, then Sasha should not only have been WAY AHEAD in the short program,
    but still beaten Arakawa because of her strengths beyond the jumps and deductions which should have been made on Arakawa's spins, transitions and doubled jumps.

    That's my opinion...but also why there is an entire judging PANEL. Everyone sees it differently. I'm seeing it from the pov of having done it... And I to Sasha...and to Mr. Nicks. (My goodness, between Tai & Randy and Sasha...he's quite the extraordinary coach - along with Tarasova and Moskvina...The BIG THREE)

    As Dick Button said, "I'll take the 2 mistakes for the rest of the program..."

    Enough said...


    ...
    First of all for all for a former Ice Dancer you know too little about the sport. I'm sorry I don't know anyone who has any knowledge of the sport could ever criticize either Sasha or Arakawa of having bad lines... Arakawa didn't win Worlds from nothing!

    Lets see Shizuka doubled one jump, but her jumps are high and has the same fluidity coming in and out of the jump... Sasha fell on two, and only executed one combination... not to mention her jumps are low!

    now lets talk about transitions... how many unusual entrances did Sasha have before her jumps?

    And please tell me how exactly did sasha became faster than Shizuka... Shizuka's basic skating skills and strokes, edges, choreo is equal if not better than Sasha... which the PCS showed they were almost tied in that mark

    Shizuka's elements is just as hard as Sasha although hers does not have the wow factor Sasha has. For example the Spiral sequence.

    I love Sasha to death but no way could anyone claim that she beat Arakawa that night! They have different skating styles, that doesn't mean one is miles ahead of the other!
    Last edited by mylastduchess; 02-25-2006 at 10:34 PM.

  15. #15
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    30

    skating opinions & knowledge or the lack there of

    [QUOTE=mylastduchess]First of all for all for a former Ice Dancer you know too little about the sport. I'm sorry I don't know anyone who has any knowledge of the sport could ever criticize either Sasha or Arakawa of having bad lines... Arakawa didn't win Worlds from nothing!


    I would never criticize Sasha's lines. They are beyond perfect.

    I guess I wasted my $ taking lessons from the finest coaches in the world, not to mention my time since I know "too little" about the sport.

    No one can tell how fast a skater is truly going or how high their jumps
    truly are by watching the event on television. So unless you were at these
    events, or unless I was at these events, it's a moot point who was going
    faster than whom...

    This is not a forum for me to talk about myself...but a forum
    to energetically engage in discussion of skating. And I assume
    all of us love it impossibly much.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •