Skaters who fall shouldn't be awarded a medal

hockeyfan228 · Feb 27, 2006

Yan Liu for gold! China has the world's highest population, after all.

Until the Olympics where India's population exceeds China's. Then Tugba Karademir for gold!

mzheng · Feb 27, 2006

FreeKatie said:
How do you explain to them why Sasha won Silver?

Tell them all the other skaters who have fallen and won medals at the Olympics and that should shut them up.

:chorus: :chorus: :chorus: :chorus:

JonnyCoop · Feb 28, 2006

gkelly said:
So what happens if all the skaters fall? No one gets a medal?

Y'know, if Speedy runs the ISU much longer, that'll be the next thing. He's probably dying to incorporate aspects of short-track speed skating (where in many races the only one still standing up wins, like the Australian guy in SLC) in figure skating. That used to be HIS sport, after all.......

Or maybe he'll have all 24 of the finalists go out there all at once and skate their long programs. Once they get done smacking into each other, colliding in mid-air and landing in an unconscious heap onto the ice (this could take out as many as 3 at once, I should imagine) and inadvertantly slamming each other into the wall, the last skater standing gets the gold; the last one before him/her to go down gets silver, and so forth. Ties would be possible, and of course this would get a little more complicated in Pairs....

OK, I'll stop now. Don't want to give Speedy any ideas. And I really shouldn't post after having two glasses of wine.....

:laugh:

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 28, 2006

I don't think a fall or more should automatically preclude a winning decision. There are many factors to determine the winner.

I do think a fall should be considered an incomplete jump and therefore penalized as such - a no jump. A zero, if you will. Putting a GoE on a jump that did not happen just doesn't make sense to me. The -1 in the score is insufficient and unnecessary since I believe the jump was not there to grade.

Grading attempts, imo, is just pussyfooting the Sport. I'm all for eliminating the Flutz as well. There is no such element. It is by definition a flip and should be graded as such. If it brings up the Zayak rule, then too bad.

However, in spite of my harsh penalties for falls, I believe a skater can still win a championship based on the rest of the program.

Joe

gkelly · Feb 28, 2006

Joesitz said:
I do think a fall should be considered an incomplete jump and therefore penalized as such - a no jump. A zero, if you will. Putting a GoE on a jump that did not happen just doesn't make sense to me. The -1 in the score is insufficient and unnecessary since I believe the jump was not there to grade.

OK, so what about a skater who falls at the end of a three-jump combination? Does s/he get points for the first two jumps, or is the whole combination considered incomplete and thus not an element?

What if the skater falls at the end of a complicated spin or step sequence? No credit for 10 seconds worth of good technique if a slight loss of concentration or an unexpected bump in the ice causes the skater to go down just before completing the element?

What if the skater falls *after* completing the element? E.g., land a jump, turn forward and take two strokes, down you go? Penalize that as part of the element, or

What if s/he falls on simple or not-so-simple transition steps between elements? Should there be any penalty at all? Just figure it into the marks for Skating Skills and Transitions and maybe Performance/Execution?

In a pair team, what if one skater falls on a side-by-side element and the other completes it beautifully? Zero points? Half points? Less than half? What if, between elements or during steps in a hold, one pair or dance partner goes down and the other partner pulls him/her right back up again and they miss a total of one step?

ladysarahchatto · Feb 28, 2006

Janet Lynn fell in her free in 1972 and still won Bronze.

Kristi Yamaguchi and Midori Ito both took tumbles in 1992 and they won Gold and Silver respectively. I don't remember if Nancy Kerrigan also took a fall.

Peggy Fleming and Scott Hamilton-I don't think they took falls but both said they did not have their best skates in 1968 and 1984 respectively when they won their Olympic titles.

Frankly-Imo Sasha should have had a substantial lead going into the LP. Her SP was magnicent and visibly superior to the untrained eye compared with all the rest. Her overall quality that night was Olympian in it's proportions.

The Pairs and Men's skates all had tumbles, or watered down routines (no triple axel for Lambiel), Shizuka, Fumie, and Irina all doubled jumps-no one was really at the top of their game except the winners in Pairs, and Plushenko.

If they really cared to know why a skater who falls medals, which I doubt, they would educate themselves and how ice skating is scored. Sasha was the only skater to crank seven triple jumps, and the only one to do a triple/triple in a combo sequence. No one else attempted seven triples, no one else attempted a triple/triple combo or sequence. I don't have a problem with Sasha's Silver. Her artistic qualities, and all the 'in between' stuff that Stoyko was NEVER a master of alone should have had her miles ahead of the pack.

dancindiva03 · Feb 28, 2006

ladysarahchatto said:
Frankly-Imo Sasha should have had a substantial lead going into the LP. Her SP was magnicent and visibly superior to the untrained eye compared with all the rest. Her overall quality that night was Olympian in it's proportions.

"Visibly superior to the untrained eye? What kind of crap is that? I've listened to the opinions from both the untrained (my dad, who knows nothing about skating) and the very highly trained (my coach, who also used to be a judge) as well as a number of opinions from those in between, and more than anything I have heard "I don't understand why Sasha is in first." The general concensus at my rink from coaches, skaters, and parents, seems to be not that she should have had a substantial lead going into the LP, but that she should have been in third going into the LP. Third by not a huge amount, but more than the .7 point that separated the top three.

Ladskater · Mar 1, 2006

If this were true then none of the skaters would be earning medals. The tricks have become so difficult falls are bound to happen. Therefore the judges have to look at the whole program. The way the skater interpreted the music, quality of edges, etc. all play a part in the final results.

In the early days of figure skating - the days of school figures - it was the figures component that determined the winner, not the freeskate. A skater could have a fabulous free skate (and that often happened) and not be so great at figures and not win the gold medal. On the other hand someone who was great at tracing figures (Trixi Schuba for instance) could have a very ho-hum free skate or even fall several times and still garner the gold medal. Now that really made the general public scratch their heads. That's why the demise of figures from competition.

The new scoring system is still being ironed out. I think for the most part the outcome is as it should be.

Peggy · Mar 1, 2006

dancindiva03 said:
The general concensus at my rink from coaches, skaters, and parents, seems to be not that she should have had a substantial lead going into the LP, but that she should have been in third going into the LP. Third by not a huge amount, but more than the .7 point that separated the top three.

Where is your rink located and why does everyone there think Sasha should have been in third after the short? I'm just curious because I don't get your evaluation..

hockeyfan228 · Mar 1, 2006

Of the top Ladies, Cohen was the only skater to have a 3 SEQ 3. Yan Liu also had one in her free skate.

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 1, 2006

gkelly - You make excellent points to ponder.

I'm not arguing Rules. If definitions are part of the Rules then a Flutz is not a lutz. How can one judge a jump that wasn't executed? We'll leave it that the Attempt is implied in the Rules, which seems to be ok with others but me.. I am just expressing my opinion which , of course, could never change the ISU Rules.

Maybe the intent of the skater was to do a Quint but he fell. Did he do a Quint?

Since the stress on the elements lies with the jumps, my concern was about incomplete jumps.

Definitions of Spins, I am not sure. Their entries and in some cases their exists are optional. If a skater falls during the actual spinning, then imo, the spin was faulty, and should be given a 0 score. If there was an Attempt to make it a combo spin and that was lost because of a fall, then there was no combo.
(losing concentration is a serious fault).

Once a skater has landed the jump, the goe score could be given. If he falls after the landing, then imo, he should get the generalized -l for the performance.

A fall on footwork should get a -1 for that element if and only if the skater got right back up and continued the footwork which then could be graded as a whole.

You got me on the sbs Pairs elements where one skater falls and the other doesn't.

Joe

antmanb · Mar 1, 2006

Joesitz said:
A fall on footwork should get a -1 for that element if and only if the skater got right back up and continued the footwork which then could be graded as a whole.

Joe

Well why is footwork any different to your evaluation of a jump? What if a skater (and this does happen often) falls on the first jump and then picks themselves right up off the ice and comlpetes the double (or somtimes) triple toe loop after it?

Why woudl the fall on the jump mean 0 for that but a fall in the step sequence be ok to give -GOEs to the base value?

Ant

dancindiva03 · Mar 1, 2006

Peggy said:
Where is your rink located and why does everyone there think Sasha should have been in third after the short? I'm just curious because I don't get your evaluation..

Why does it matter where my rink is located? And what about my evaluation is so hard to "get"?

Third in the short due to her lack of speed and edging, and much less height on her jumps as compared to Irina and Shizuka, and in general they thought her PCS marks were too high.

Lanie · Mar 1, 2006

dancindiva03 said:
Why does it matter where my rink is located? And what about my evaluation is so hard to "get"?

Third in the short due to her lack of speed and edging, and much less height on her jumps as compared to Irina and Shizuka, and in general they thought her PCS marks were too high.

I didn't know height in jumps really was that important.

Not everyone's going to have massive, huge jumps. You think Irina and Shizuka's are big? Look at Julia Sebesteyn! THOSE are big jumps!

Were you there? Yeah, Sasha's not as fast as the other girls, but you act like she's a slug out there. AFAIK you cannot tell speed very well from watching a competition on TV.

ladysarahchatto · Mar 3, 2006

dancindiva03 said:
"Visibly superior to the untrained eye? What kind of crap is that? I've listened to the opinions from both the untrained (my dad, who knows nothing about skating) and the very highly trained (my coach, who also used to be a judge) as well as a number of opinions from those in between, and more than anything I have heard "I don't understand why Sasha is in first." The general concensus at my rink from coaches, skaters, and parents, seems to be not that she should have had a substantial lead going into the LP, but that she should have been in third going into the LP. Third by not a huge amount, but more than the .7 point that separated the top three.

I beg your pardon but it was my opinion and it is very rude to call another person's 'crap'. If you don't agree-fine. We will have to agree to disagree and believe it or not it is possible to remain civil towards one another.

ladysarahchatto · Mar 3, 2006

Peggy said:
Where is your rink located and why does everyone there think Sasha should have been in third after the short? I'm just curious because I don't get your evaluation..

Neither do I-but that poster lost my interest and respect after calling my views 'crap'. The poster must be a child. Or a very immature adult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanie
I didn't know height in jumps really was that important.

Not everyone's going to have massive, huge jumps. You think Irina and Shizuka's are big? Look at Julia Sebesteyn! THOSE are big jumps!

Were you there? Yeah, Sasha's not as fast as the other girls, but you act like she's a slug out there. AFAIK you cannot tell speed very well from watching a competition on TV.

If height in the jumps were a factor Tara would have never won Olympic Gold. Not all skaters are tall, or have strong legs like Ito's. Not every one can vault themselves 3 or more feet into the air. If the height of Sasha's (and Tara's) jumps had ever been a factor they would have not medalled at Worlds, or the Olympics-or even made it on their National Team.

Sandra Bezic WAS there and she said Sasha showed good speed in the SP. That is sufficient.

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 3, 2006

antmanb said:
Well why is footwork any different to your evaluation of a jump? What if a skater (and this does happen often) falls on the first jump and then picks themselves right up off the ice and comlpetes the double (or somtimes) triple toe loop after it?

Why woudl the fall on the jump mean 0 for that but a fall in the step sequence be ok to give -GOEs to the base value?

Ant

You're absolutely correct. It's just me that sees the combo as a collective element and not just two or more individual jumps. IMO, if the combo was not complete, there was no combo.

Joe

Mathman · Mar 3, 2006

In the NJS I think the height of a jump is one of the points considered in GOE -- along with several other factors.

soogar · Mar 3, 2006

Then tell Buttle and Lambiel to return their medals pronto.

Engwaciriel · Mar 3, 2006

Well, regarding the Sasha-short-program-debate, most people I've spoken to, non-americans with not that much knowledge in figure skating, thought she was the best by far. My friend who barely ever watch the sport was just like "WOW!" :bow:

I do think she had the best short program, but as people have said before me, some things you don't see on the television.

Just curious though, how are you thinking when you won't to take away all the credit for jumps. I agree that it's a bit weird when you get quite a lot of points for a fall, but still. Everyone would open up their jumps, and not dare to do the difficult things. I personally would find that very boring..

And totally out of subject. Wasn't Yan Liu's both program just beautiful. She'd definitely be on my podium...:agree:

Skaters who fall shouldn't be awarded a medal

hockeyfan228

mzheng

JonnyCoop

Joesitz (RIP)

gkelly

ladysarahchatto

dancindiva03

Match Penalty

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

Peggy

hockeyfan228

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

dancindiva03

Match Penalty

Lanie

ladysarahchatto

ladysarahchatto

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

soogar

Engwaciriel

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