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Thread: Skaters who fall shouldn't be awarded a medal

  1. #31
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    gkelly - You make excellent points to ponder.

    I'm not arguing Rules. If definitions are part of the Rules then a Flutz is not a lutz. How can one judge a jump that wasn't executed? We'll leave it that the Attempt is implied in the Rules, which seems to be ok with others but me.. I am just expressing my opinion which , of course, could never change the ISU Rules.

    Maybe the intent of the skater was to do a Quint but he fell. Did he do a Quint?

    Since the stress on the elements lies with the jumps, my concern was about incomplete jumps.

    Definitions of Spins, I am not sure. Their entries and in some cases their exists are optional. If a skater falls during the actual spinning, then imo, the spin was faulty, and should be given a 0 score. If there was an Attempt to make it a combo spin and that was lost because of a fall, then there was no combo.
    (losing concentration is a serious fault).

    Once a skater has landed the jump, the goe score could be given. If he falls after the landing, then imo, he should get the generalized -l for the performance.

    A fall on footwork should get a -1 for that element if and only if the skater got right back up and continued the footwork which then could be graded as a whole.

    You got me on the sbs Pairs elements where one skater falls and the other doesn't.

    Joe

  2. #32
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz

    A fall on footwork should get a -1 for that element if and only if the skater got right back up and continued the footwork which then could be graded as a whole.

    Joe
    Well why is footwork any different to your evaluation of a jump? What if a skater (and this does happen often) falls on the first jump and then picks themselves right up off the ice and comlpetes the double (or somtimes) triple toe loop after it?

    Why woudl the fall on the jump mean 0 for that but a fall in the step sequence be ok to give -GOEs to the base value?

    Ant

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peggy
    Where is your rink located and why does everyone there think Sasha should have been in third after the short? I'm just curious because I don't get your evaluation..
    Why does it matter where my rink is located? And what about my evaluation is so hard to "get"?

    Third in the short due to her lack of speed and edging, and much less height on her jumps as compared to Irina and Shizuka, and in general they thought her PCS marks were too high.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancindiva03
    Why does it matter where my rink is located? And what about my evaluation is so hard to "get"?

    Third in the short due to her lack of speed and edging, and much less height on her jumps as compared to Irina and Shizuka, and in general they thought her PCS marks were too high.
    I didn't know height in jumps really was that important. :P Not everyone's going to have massive, huge jumps. You think Irina and Shizuka's are big? Look at Julia Sebesteyn! THOSE are big jumps!

    Were you there? Yeah, Sasha's not as fast as the other girls, but you act like she's a slug out there. AFAIK you cannot tell speed very well from watching a competition on TV.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancindiva03
    "Visibly superior to the untrained eye? What kind of crap is that? I've listened to the opinions from both the untrained (my dad, who knows nothing about skating) and the very highly trained (my coach, who also used to be a judge) as well as a number of opinions from those in between, and more than anything I have heard "I don't understand why Sasha is in first." The general concensus at my rink from coaches, skaters, and parents, seems to be not that she should have had a substantial lead going into the LP, but that she should have been in third going into the LP. Third by not a huge amount, but more than the .7 point that separated the top three.
    I beg your pardon but it was my opinion and it is very rude to call another person's 'crap'. If you don't agree-fine. We will have to agree to disagree and believe it or not it is possible to remain civil towards one another.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peggy
    Where is your rink located and why does everyone there think Sasha should have been in third after the short? I'm just curious because I don't get your evaluation..
    Neither do I-but that poster lost my interest and respect after calling my views 'crap'. The poster must be a child. Or a very immature adult.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lanie
    I didn't know height in jumps really was that important. :P Not everyone's going to have massive, huge jumps. You think Irina and Shizuka's are big? Look at Julia Sebesteyn! THOSE are big jumps!

    Were you there? Yeah, Sasha's not as fast as the other girls, but you act like she's a slug out there. AFAIK you cannot tell speed very well from watching a competition on TV.


    If height in the jumps were a factor Tara would have never won Olympic Gold. Not all skaters are tall, or have strong legs like Ito's. Not every one can vault themselves 3 or more feet into the air. If the height of Sasha's (and Tara's) jumps had ever been a factor they would have not medalled at Worlds, or the Olympics-or even made it on their National Team.

    Sandra Bezic WAS there and she said Sasha showed good speed in the SP. That is sufficient.
    Last edited by ladysarahchatto; 03-03-2006 at 02:28 AM.

  7. #37
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    Well why is footwork any different to your evaluation of a jump? What if a skater (and this does happen often) falls on the first jump and then picks themselves right up off the ice and comlpetes the double (or somtimes) triple toe loop after it?

    Why woudl the fall on the jump mean 0 for that but a fall in the step sequence be ok to give -GOEs to the base value?

    Ant
    You're absolutely correct. It's just me that sees the combo as a collective element and not just two or more individual jumps. IMO, if the combo was not complete, there was no combo.

    Joe

  8. #38
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    In the NJS I think the height of a jump is one of the points considered in GOE -- along with several other factors.

  9. #39
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    Then tell Buttle and Lambiel to return their medals pronto.

  10. #40
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    Well, regarding the Sasha-short-program-debate, most people I've spoken to, non-americans with not that much knowledge in figure skating, thought she was the best by far. My friend who barely ever watch the sport was just like "WOW!"

    I do think she had the best short program, but as people have said before me, some things you don't see on the television.


    Just curious though, how are you thinking when you won't to take away all the credit for jumps. I agree that it's a bit weird when you get quite a lot of points for a fall, but still. Everyone would open up their jumps, and not dare to do the difficult things. I personally would find that very boring..

    And totally out of subject. Wasn't Yan Liu's both program just beautiful. She'd definitely be on my podium...

  11. #41
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engwaciriel
    Wasn't Yan Liu's both program just beautiful. She'd definitely be on my podium...
    Yes, it was great. But when they showed it on U.S. television, for some reason the commentators, especially Scott Hamilton and Dick Button, really tore into her, saying that her program had no artistic content, just stroking from one jump to the next. Go figure.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Yes, it was great. But when they showed it on U.S. television, for some reason the commentators, especially Scott Hamilton and Dick Button, really tore into her, saying that her program had no artistic content, just stroking from one jump to the next. Go figure.

    Well, that's what I like about the Swedish eurosport commentators..they always talk about all the good things, and barely ever critizice skaters. And just like me they thought Yan Liu was very underpaid in both programs...She was one of very few to skate two clean just beautiful programs.

  13. #43
    Rinkside
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    I totally agree w/ this!
    Giving points to failed jumps just don't make sense. Here's a basketball analogy for ya, imagine if a basketball player misses the hoop but was given 0.5 for getting it so close! Take that.

    And also, for the poster w/ the Quarterback analogy. Remmber FS has that presentation or PCS mark and are also judged by GOE. Football only cares about the points, as most other sports. So really, your analogy kind of falls apart if you really think about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I don't think a fall or more should automatically preclude a winning decision. There are many factors to determine the winner.

    I do think a fall should be considered an incomplete jump and therefore penalized as such - a no jump. A zero, if you will. Putting a GoE on a jump that did not happen just doesn't make sense to me. The -1 in the score is insufficient and unnecessary since I believe the jump was not there to grade.

    Grading attempts, imo, is just pussyfooting the Sport. I'm all for eliminating the Flutz as well. There is no such element. It is by definition a flip and should be graded as such. If it brings up the Zayak rule, then too bad.

    However, in spite of my harsh penalties for falls, I believe a skater can still win a championship based on the rest of the program.

    Joe
    Last edited by 3lutz3toe; 08-17-2006 at 02:14 PM.

  14. #44
    Rinkside
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    I think it is very simplistic to suggest that people feel Sasha shouldn't haven't medalled because she fell.
    We all know that standings and winnings and losings are all relative.
    I think what people are thinking is that SC shouldn't have placed 2nd w/ that many mistakes over a few skaters that were pretty good who skated clean.

    This points out flaws in a system that reward points for fallen jumps. Under the old system, fallen jumps weren't counted. Regardless, it is just ludicrous to give points to fallen jumps. Not sure why there is a certain # of people who insist that this is OK.

    Not only shouldn't you get points for fallen jumps, you should also get dinged for your PCS! Of course this would depend on how jarring the fall(s) are.

    Hello, even Sasha knew she shouldn't have medalled and called it a “GIFT”

  15. #45
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    Can you do a Triple Lutz/Triple Toe combination?

    No. You can't.

    So be quiet. Mkay?

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