Medalists who have fallen in Olympics | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Medalists who have fallen in Olympics

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
dancindiva03 said:
I don't exactly recall the wording of the new definition of a fall, but whatever it is, it needs to be re-worked. Because there is NO WAY that Sasha's second fall should not have been counted as a fall. I mean, you can't see that mistake and say that she "landed" the jump, and if you didn't land a jump, then you fell. It wasn't a mere step-out or turn-out.
I haven't looked at the protocols. How much credit, if any, did she get for that second boo boo? It seemed to me she didn't even make the rotations.

Joe
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
IIRC the ISU changed the definition of a "fall" prior to the 2005-2006 season. Before, it was counted as a fall only if "neither skate could maintain contact with the ice," or something like that. So skaters were saving falls by somehow keeping one blade on the ice while sitting on their bottom.

So they changed the rule to include language along the lines of, "if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck." In particular, a hand down is not per se a fall, but if you are supporting your full weight with your hands, that is a fall.

MZheng, that is a very interesting piece by Mrs. Bianchetti. I think it deserves it's own thread. Do you mind if I start one? I certainly agree that these Olympic games were the worst in memory from the spectators' point of view. I am not sure whether the CoP is to blame or whether Speedy is right when he says the athletes just lack talent.

MM
 
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mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Mathman said:
MZheng, that is a very interesting piece by Mrs. Bianchetti. I think it deserves it's own thread. Do you mind if I start one? I certainly agree that these Olympic games were the worst in memory from the spectators' point of view. I am not sure whether the CoP is to blame or whether Speedy is right when he says the athletes just lack talent.

MM
Yes, Larry, go ahead start one, if you feel it's OK. This link was from a poster at MKF, who is on mailing list of Sonia Bianchetti. I don't know the rule here.

I do agree most of what her saying regarding the NJS and Game. But I don't like some comments of personal attackting, which imo was too politics. I'm alergy to politics, anything sounded there are some politics agenda behind cause my suspicious. lol
 

orchid

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
SusanBeth said:
I am saying that it doesn't matter if you think it's a fall. It's doesn't matter what I think constitutes a fall. There are rules in place defining a fall. The referee is obliged to go by the official definition when determining whether a fall has occurred. Therefore, as far as the judging is concerned, Sasha fell once.

I hope that was clear enough for you to understand. :biggrin:

SusanB*, now that you have Mathman, and MZheng'a post to review, perhaps you understand the point of what constitutes a fall. And what was not judged as a fall..
Perhaps, viewing the World Champs, you will feel more informed.

Cheers.

O
 
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SusanBeth

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
orchid said:
SusanB*, now that you have Mathman, and MZheng'a post to review, perhaps you understand the point of what constitutes a fall. And what was not judged as a fall..
Perhaps, viewing the World Champs, you will feel more informed.

Cheers.

O

I see nothing in those posts that contradicts mine. Let me try to explain this one last time.

I am saying that it doesn't matter if you think it's a fall. It's doesn't matter what I think constitutes a fall. There are rules in place defining a fall.
With all due respect to them, what MM, MZheng, Bianchetti, Noah Webster, or my MIL thinks should count as a fall is not the point. It's not their definition in play and it's not their call to make.

The referee is obliged to go by the official definition when determining whether a fall has occurred.

It's the Refs call to make. He knows the rules and he applies them. His opinion is the one that counts. Does that mean everyone is going to agree? Hell no, this is figure skating. It does mean his opinion counts and
Therefore, as far as the judging is concerned, Sasha fell once

IMO, going around implying there were 2 "official" falls is strictly untrue. The person, who had to decide if the majority of Sasha's weight was on her hand or on her feet, ruled it was not a fall.

For the record, if you want to take liberties with my name, you might as well type SusanB*tch. Some people might not get SusanB* and your efforts would be wasted.
 
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mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
SusanBeth said:
With all due respect to them, what MM, MZheng, Bianchetti, Noah Webster, or my MIL thinks should count as a fall is not the point. It's not their definition in play and it's not their call to make.

It's the Refs call to make. He knows the rules and he applies them. His opinion is the one that counts. Does that mean everyone is going to agree? Hell no, this is figure skating. It does mean his opinion counts and

Yes, you are right it doesn't matter we think it is a fall or not.

But according to Bianchetti (it was reported her son is currently on ISU tech commitee) letter, from what she heard, it was very likely a mistake. From where she heard? Her son? (From her previouse letters about disscussing of other competetions, she does talk to her son regarding these competetion very often).

Given that the end result won't change, even the -1 deduction applied, I'm not supprised there is no protesting from RF (since Irina also skated poorly) and no ISU officials come ahead to correct the mistake.....the least thing ISU wanted in this Olympics was anything could possibley cause the critisizing of NJS.

Cohen fell on her first jump, a triple Lutz, and put her hands down on the triple flip to keep balance after a shaky landing. Since the two hands she put down seemed to be supporting all her weight, according to the definition of fall, an extra deduction of 1.0 should have been applied. The Technical Panel did not do so and, very likely, from what I have heard, this was a mistake. Cohen really got a gift not being given a second deduction for this jump although even with one point less she would still have won the silver medal. This proves, once more, how influential and dangerous the technical panel may be on the results.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Part of the New Judging System is that there is suposed to be a thorough review of the decisions of the technical staff and the judges after each event. At the end of the season the performances of each judge and technical caller is evaluated.

What would be cool is if the minutes of these review meetings were made public. This will never happen, but I think transparency like this would be good for the sport. In many other sports -- major league baseball and NFL football especially -- the referees often admit to errors in calls after the fact. This doesn't change the outcome of the game, but it does let the public know that the officials are trying their best.

In figure skating, by contrast, everything has a cloak-and-dagger aura to it.

Secondly, SusanBeth is quite right to say that the only opinions that count are those of the technical specialist and his two partners. This set-up has been criticized (for instance by Mrs. Bianchetti) as putting too much power in the hands of a single person.

But the other side of the coin is that it correspondingly takes power out of the hands of the judges who are nominated by and beholden to the national federations, each with its own particular agenda.

MM :)
 

tarotx

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Sasha would have only lost 1.14 more points or so if the flip was called a fall. It's a mute point for now. That said I think it wasn't called a fall because Sasha's butt or knee didn't hit the ice and she kept moving even if slowely. I would have called it a fall but I don't think it was a caller mistake either. Mrs. Bianchetti has an agenda. Any time she can make COP look bad she points it out. Her opinion is bias to me-she has an political reason for saying what she does. Not that that is wrong-I would like to have pro cop, nuterual and anti cop have some type of public discussion/debate once worlds is over. This was the first quad for the new judging system and it would nice if there was a debate on if it was a good thing or not.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I've been saying that from day 1! The Tech Asst has the most powerful position in the NJS. And I read recently that the Caller should call an attempted lutz failed due to a rock over to the bi edge when he sees it. Has he ever called that? or has he left the flutz to the judges?

Does anyone know of any calls that were questioned or is it God doing the calling?

Even all those posters who see underrotated jumps of skaters challenging their favorites, and the Caller never mentions the underrotation. the question is: Can we still call an underrotated jump if the Caller doesn't?

Joe
 

orchid

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Joesitz said:
I've been saying that from day 1! The Tech Asst has the most powerful position in the NJS. And I read recently that the Caller should call an attempted lutz failed due to a rock over to the bi edge when he sees it. Has he ever called that? or has he left the flutz to the judges?

Does anyone know of any calls that were questioned or is it God doing the calling?

Even all those posters who see underrotated jumps of skaters challenging their favorites, and the Caller never mentions the underrotation. the question is: Can we still call an underrotated jump if the Caller doesn't?

Joe

Yes, if we and see the misstep, miskate, the Caller should as well. We do, or SHOULD understand the rules, and so should the Caller/judges.

True, the official record, will not charge Cohen for the second fall, but in fact she did fall twice and is irrevalent to the outcome. But what if not charging her1.00 deduction did make a difference between Silver and Bronze?

Overall, if believe judging in the NJS has no more equity than 6.0.

All the talk about the judges reviewing the skate move which may be in question, how does that happen?, The scores are to be posted in such a short time or the audience boos and more contraversy upon the judges can occur,
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
As far as I remember Cousins did have some mistake in his Olympic freeskate (a singled jump?), but I still enjoyed his performance very much. Generally I would say that it does not matter to me one bit, whether a gold medalist or any medalist has one or more mistakes as long as those performances can be considered to be the best of the evening. Or with CoP the lead after the short programme is such that it even allows mistakes.
 

SusanBeth

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
For the record, my beef was with stating opinion like it was absolute and official fact. Opine to your heart's content, I certainly do. However, as far as the judging goes, Sasha fell once.
 
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