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Thread: Weir's image causing a ruckus at another site

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by julietvalcouer
    Maybe not hypocrisy, but a bizarre, willful, even, willingness to overlook the millions of people murdered by the Soviet Union. It's not a matter of "Oh, we were at odds with them." It's a matter of at least twenty million people killed. Six million Ukrainians alone were murdered in an engineered famine. Sure, the USSR doesn't exist as a political entity any more, but so what? I mean, Nazi Germany doesn't exist any more, either, but it's still not cool to wear swastikas and death's heads and SS lightning patches because several million people are still dead. Maybe because the Western left politicians and academics always made excuses for the Soviet Union and Communism in general some people think it wasn't as bad, but it was if anything worse than Nazi Germany. Saying that kids don't understand means they should be educated, not that they should be allowed to use mass-murdering dictatorships as fashion statements without expecting flak.
    Flak away, but I don't buy into it at all. You can project all this meaning onto it. In fact, you have to, because none of it is coming from the kids. They have not killed. They aren't supporting killers. Intent matters, and there is no evil intent to wearing these things. I think you are condemning the innocent and calling it just. No one is overlooking the past, they are just moving forward. You are looking back. Obviously, you aren't seeing the same things.

    For these kids, the CCCP shirt means nothing significant. I actually think that might be strange, sweet revenge.

  2. #32
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    What bugged me abut the CCCP jacket is he was wearing it AT OLYMPIC PRACTICE WHILE REPRESENTING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. At the OLYMPICS. Representing NOT Russia, NOT the USSR, but the USA. That's what bothered me. If he wore it elsewhere I wouldn't really care--but at the Olympics...that annoyed me.

  3. #33
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    ITA; ambassor of good-will is fine, but that went too far.

  4. #34
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    I thought the US was a free country? No one here in Canada would object. Weir could wear whatever he wants here.
    Ladskater, please don't speak for all Canadians. I found Johnny's jacket offensive, as I posted in the original thread. For me it's not the CCCP part, it is that he was wearing it during an official practice when he is supposed to be representing his country.

    To put it into terms that might mean more for Canadians, what would people in Canada think if Clara Hughes or Cindy Klassen has been wearing USA uniforms during the speed-skating practice sessions? I think that Canadians would not be impressed with behaviour like that. Obviously, it would have nothing to do with it being a USA uniform, but rather than in the practice sessions they are supposed to be representing Canada.

    Outside of the practice sessions I think they could wear whatever they liked, but not when they are officially representing their country.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johar
    I am tempted to get in there and defend him, but that won't change people's mind. It started with a ruckus over his CCCP jacket. This ruckus is at a non-skating board.

    I am tempted to post the URL to the 160+ posts over him.

    Did any of you find his CCCP jacket offensive?
    I'm not offended in the least. I grew up during the last years of the Cold War. I miss seeing those team uniforms with CCCP emblazoned across the back.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SusanBeth
    I think you are projecting motives and intentions that aren't involved in this at all.
    These kids didn't grow up during the Cold War. It doesn't have the same emotions tied into it. To them, it truly means nothing. There is no treason or bad intent to it whatsoever. Naturally, you are free to not like it to your heart's content. That doesn't mean they are doing anything evil.
    Exactly. I remember Maria Butyrskaya wore a CCCP top at a skating exhibition on tv. That was her country. It's where she was born. For Johnny, he has made it clear he is a Russia fan.

    Originally Posted by julietvalcouer
    Maybe not hypocrisy, but a bizarre, willful, even, willingness to overlook the millions of people murdered by the Soviet Union. It's not a matter of "Oh, we were at odds with them." It's a matter of at least twenty million people killed. Six million Ukrainians alone were murdered in an engineered famine. Sure, the USSR doesn't exist as a political entity any more, but so what? I mean, Nazi Germany doesn't exist any more, either, but it's still not cool to wear swastikas and death's heads and SS lightning patches because several million people are still dead. Maybe because the Western left politicians and academics always made excuses for the Soviet Union and Communism in general some people think it wasn't as bad, but it was if anything worse than Nazi Germany. Saying that kids don't understand means they should be educated, not that they should be allowed to use mass-murdering dictatorships as fashion statements without expecting flak.
    The same could be said about the USA. Untold numbers of African and African-American Slaves died or lived their entire lives under bondage in the States barely over a century and half ago. And that is not counting African-Americans who were murdered by the KKK particularly in Southern States, there were the Japanese-Americans forced into internment camps in the 1940s, and many more were mistreated and all perfectly within the laws of the times. And that was well into the 1960's. My Native American friends could tell a tale or two about the mistreatment and yes government-sanctioned murder of their ancestors. No government or country with great power can say they have not been guilty of abusing entire groups of peoples at some point in their history.
    Last edited by ladysarahchatto; 03-01-2006 at 02:08 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johar
    I am tempted to get in there and defend him, but that won't change people's mind. It started with a ruckus over his CCCP jacket. This ruckus is at a non-skating board.

    I am tempted to post the URL to the 160+ posts over him.

    Did any of you find his CCCP jacket offensive?
    please post a link!! or i refuse to believe your claim that non-skating fans would post 160+ replies about Johnny Weir!!!!

  8. #38
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    I'm not offended by it, because he didn't mean anything by it. I fully believe that he was absolutely NOT making an intentional political statement.

    Besides, the jacket was a gift from a friend. I think I heard it was a birthday gift from Tatiana Totmianina (though I could be mistaken about that), and that it was perhaps a sort of good luck charm.
    And as someone already said, it's a trend. And Johnny Weir is nothing if not fashionable.

    That doesn't necessarily EXCUSE wearing it (like I said, it wasn't wise), but Johnny wouldn't understand people finding the jacket to be the equivalent of the Nazi symbol, because the jacket doesn't hold that same meaning to him. To him it doesn't represent mass murders committed by the Soviet Union; it's just a jacket from Russia. And he loves Russia. There IS no deeper significance.
    I think that it's good for people to explain to Johnny WHY the jacket would be viewed as offensive, so he can understand that. But I don't think it should be such a big deal, just IMO.
    Last edited by blackrose050; 03-01-2006 at 03:03 AM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by orchid
    The point is that Johnny acquired the CCCP jacket before the games began.
    Traditionally, the exchange of athletic attire begins at the closing ceremonies.

    At least, publically, meaning he managed a Kodak moment before the games began wearing a Russian garment.

    I think a poor choice of timing.
    I must agree here. If Jonny wore a Russia jacket that too would cause an uproar. lets face it,, he is an American and should have worn his own jacket. As it is the Team he is representing. Does not really matter that the CCCP is no longer in exisistance, or that it was a gift, in practice your seen. It was politically the wrong choice. As I said before its just a mode thing, I have the shirt, big deal, It was the mode here 2 years ago! He could wear it Anywhere Else he wanted but to wear it onto the Ice and knowing he IS an American, Representing the American team For America, I do feel he made a bad choice there. I personally was not offended but I could see where people would be! Lets put it this way, that would never be tolerated on our French team if one of them wore another countries name on their chest during Olympic practice. we are a free country too, but there is politically correct and then there is not.
    JMO
    Fauve

  10. #40
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    If that's the attitude people have, we owe Germany, Italy, and Japan WHOPPING huge apologies for World War II and the Nuremberg trials. Because hey, all countries do bad things. (Ask the Koreans or Chinese how they'd feel about Japan saying "Hey, everyone does it." Especially the Koreans. Just don't say I didn't warn you.) And neither the slave trade (which America hardly started as it didn't even exist) nor Japanese internment camps are equatable with what the Soviet Union did, before, during, and after Stalin. The tendency to say "oh, it was all Stalin and before and after him it was just a worker's paradise" is naive at best. Think that there's a moral equivalency if you want. Some of us know better.

    And I'm surprised there isn't a rule at the Olympics about wearing official team clothing. It seems as though that could cause confusion in addition to political faux pas if someone started wearing team jackets from extant countries.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by julietvalcouer
    If that's the attitude people have, we owe Germany, Italy, and Japan WHOPPING huge apologies for World War II and the Nuremberg trials. Because hey, all countries do bad things. (Ask the Koreans or Chinese how they'd feel about Japan saying "Hey, everyone does it." Especially the Koreans. Just don't say I didn't warn you.) And neither the slave trade (which America hardly started as it didn't even exist) nor Japanese internment camps are equatable with what the Soviet Union did, before, during, and after Stalin. The tendency to say "oh, it was all Stalin and before and after him it was just a worker's paradise" is naive at best. Think that there's a moral equivalency if you want. Some of us know better.

    And I'm surprised there isn't a rule at the Olympics about wearing official team clothing. It seems as though that could cause confusion in addition to political faux pas if someone started wearing team jackets from extant countries.
    I understand the argument for him not wearing the jacket because it's the Olympics. But as for it being related to past atrocities that's probably looking into things more than is necessary. Not everything is political.

    As for the slave trade not being started be the US you are right. The term slave has its roots in 'slav' relating to Slavic people. The Japanese camps were a pretty serious human rights infringement but it can be argued that many countries were doing the same thing. It may not have been right but it's what was going on at the time.

    The US treatment of Natives, OTOH, was completely disgusting. The same is true for Canada. There is nothing that can be said to repair the damage done.

    Yes it is possible to look at the USSR in light of how different leaders did things. Things in the USSR were never worse than when Stalin ruled. It does not belittle any atrocities committed under other Soviet leaders, but let's look at this realistically: the collectivization programs were Stalin's baby and this, combined with the Communist Party purges and Stalin basically losing his mind from paranoia, were the things that led to so many Soviet citizens' needless deaths. If Stalin had not come to power during the years after Lenin's death one can only guess as to where the USSR would have gone or what it would have become. This is not saying that Lenin was innocent of anything. It would, however, be interesting to see where things would have gone if his NEP would have continued, and how communism would have developed. Under the NEP things were looking up. The parallels between the NEP and Gorbachev's perestroika are fascinating. Perestroika unravelled in a different way, however, and it helped contribute to the USSR's demise.

    No, there was not any kind of worker's paradise in the USSR. But to paint the USSR in bold strokes is making sweeping generalizations. No one is being naive. It's simply an interesting debate.

    Since you seem to be interested in this topic let me recommend a book for you. It's called 'Execution by Hunger', written as a memoir by Miron Dolot about living in the USSR during the famines. It's completely absorbing and heartwrenching. I think you'll enjoy it. Cheers.

  12. #42
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    [CENTER]This is much ado about nothing. I see kids wearing stuff like THIS and THIS all the time.[/CENTER]

  13. #43
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    Yeah, Idle, I see loads of that too. It's pathetic and disgusting but I think it's mostly people who are too stupid to realize who those people are. :P The only thing that bugged me about Johnny wearing the CCCP jacket was that it's during the Olympics when he's representing the USA. Wear team stuff, please.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie
    Yeah, Idle, I see loads of that too. It's pathetic and disgusting but I think it's mostly people who are too stupid to realize who those people are. :P The only thing that bugged me about Johnny wearing the CCCP jacket was that it's during the Olympics when he's representing the USA. Wear team stuff, please.
    I think they are mainly worn by kids who do not place a great deal of philosophical importance on tshirt design. They are also worn by people who do not rush to condemn where no harm is meant.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SusanBeth
    I think they are mainly worn by kids who do not place a great deal of philosophical importance on tshirt design. They are also worn by people who do not rush to condemn where no harm is meant.
    And are worn by people who are stuningly ignorant of world history.....

    Again, I say, Johnny is an idiot.

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