Did not miss Plushenko at all!

soogar · Apr 15, 2006

Mathman said:
For what it's worth (?), Ottavio Cinquanta was asked after the Olympics if he thought the New Judging System was to blame for the marked and obvious decline in skating skills among the competors.

He said, no, it's not the fault of the judging system, it's the fault of the national federations for failing to develop the talent.

MM

What do you mean obvious decline in skating skills??? You have skaters like Lambiel, Shizuka and Buttle (as well as Plush) who have top notch skating skills. Sorry, but I think the scoring system speaks volumes that skaters who have had very little inbetweens are being buried in the standings. Shizuka is probably the best Olympic champion ever in terms of skating quality, jumps, spins and edges.

The only reason skaters are falling all over the place is because they are pushing themselves to the max on everything and very few skaters are good at everything. The system is exposing the weaknesses in skaters because they can't hide them as easily in this system as they could in the 6.0.

And skating has never been this deep. The quality of the competitors is so much better than the heyday of the 6.0 era. It really is anyone's game out there and the smaller federations are producing skaters who could win medals in international competitions.

psycho · Apr 15, 2006

Zazanuka said:
No, Weir and even Lysacek are waaay better skaters than Joubert. I think Weir even better skater than Lambiel despite of all his medals.
Basic Weir's problem is quard, which he cannot jump in competitions. But even without quard clean Weir should win clean Joubert if correctly to put estimations for PCS.
If Lysacek will jump the quard in the following season who will be the leader? Weir, Lysacek, Lambiel?

I agree that Weir is a way better artist and technician than Lysacek, and he can easily beat Lambiel if he manages to land a quad. And I don't think that a quad is his problem. He lands them very consistently in practice, and he only did a minor two-foot in competition. He never splats on a quad like Jeff or Evan do.
However, Johnny has one real big problem, and that is his nerves. I don't think he can, at his point, turn off his insecurity and skate as an automatic robot. This is what always lets him down. On the other hand, the fact that he doesn't skate like a robot is probably the reason why he is so artistic and his interpretation is so great. It seems like a double-edged sword.

hockeyfan228 · Apr 15, 2006

psycho said:
I agree that Weir is a way better artist and technician than Lysacek, and he can easily beat Lambiel if he manages to land a quad.

I agree that a Weir with clean quad, 3A, 3A/3T combo, and max of jumping passes/combos could beat Lambiel, but I don't think there would be anything easy or automatic about it. I would expect the scores to be very close.

Mathman · Apr 15, 2006

soogar said:
What do you mean obvious decline in skating skills???

That wasn't me saying that, it was Cinquanta.

My opinion is that the men were better and the ladies worse than in previous Olympics and Worlds.

True, Shizuka skated well in Turino and Kimmie skated well in Calgary. But it was kind of like, give the medal to the one left standing, IMHO. Personally, I'll take Michelle and Tara in 1998.

JMO.

MM

slutskayafan21 · Apr 15, 2006

The marks Weir received at Worlds made it clear he is losing some momentum with the judges, probably they are tired of waiting for him to deliver for so long. With an almost clean short he was beaten by 5 points by a young immature skater like Oda with the same jumps, even without his small mistakes he would have been well behind him. I think next year it wont even be certain a clean Weir will beat a clean Lysacek if they do the same jumps. Lambiel will not ever lose to Weir in the future though, even if Weir skates cleanly with his quad, unless Lambiel flubs some of his other jumps like the triple axel, etc.....

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 16, 2006

SF21 - I have to agree with you on Weir. I discovered him many years ago in a US Nationals (which he should have won but there was a sloppy Tod, Michael, etc. who had to get to the Worlds.) where he just flowed over the ice and executed incredible triples to the music. However, since his 'fame', I have seen a decline in his basic skating skills which were the best in the business.

I think he says too much publicly and he realizes it while he is competing. Best way for him to pull himself back up to his great potential would be to lay low for the next couple of years and just abound at the competitions and then go back into laying low till the next competition.

Joe

antmanb · Apr 18, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
Joubert is better than Lysacek and Weir, like it or not, that is a fact. Joubert has won two World silvers, and won a significant title(2004 Europeans) over Plushenko. Lysacek and Weir have done none of those things, and none of the 3 have an Olympic medal.

I disagree, i think Joubert is a better jumper than Lysacek and Weir, though Weir has a much better triple axel than Joubert.

As basic skaters i think Weir is better than Joubert.

Overall in terms of consistency on the ice that's where Joubert has gotten his competitive advantage, but on pure basic skating, stroking, moves in the field...i think Weir is better than Joubert.

Ant

antmanb · Apr 18, 2006

Zazanuka said:
Yes, this is your personal opinion.
QUOTE]

Which is why i wrote "my personal opinion is"...???

antmanb · Apr 18, 2006

soogar said:
Changing edges is hard as he!! to do in a spin (which is why skaters didn't do it too often in 6.0 days) and spinning in an I and Biellman position is also very difficult.

Really?? I'm struggling to get a backspin at the moment. I can get more than a couple of revolutions spinning on the inside edge, whereas getting over to the outside edge is very har d- require your weight to be over you spinning leg and that slightly leaning out feeling that makes it scary.

Falling onto an inside edge on a backspin is a very common beginners mistake which is why i don't understand why such a change would be rewarded by the current judging system.

While agree that spinning in a Biellmann or I position is very difficult, i don't think its so much to do with your skating skill as with your inherent flexibility. The pulling of youleg above your head is not as much to do with what your balde is doing on the ice which is why i think its a gimmick more than a skating skill.

Ant

Vash01 · Apr 21, 2006

antmanb said:
My statement that it was "widely accepted" that Yagudin was more artisitc and Pluschenko was more about the technical was based on the fact that when the two skated clean Yagudin would usually beat him in the presentation mark. Up until 2002 that was always the case. Which leads me to assume that the judges certainyl thought Yagudin to be the more artisitc of the two. I think the judges then started to recognise a more artistic side to Pluschenko's skating as he got older but not while Yagudin was around.

And i totally understood your english what is your first language?

Ant

Yagudin was a couple years older than Plushenko. When these two were competing against each other, Yagudin was the more developed skater. However, Plushenko has improved significantly since 2002. It will be unfair to compare the 2002 Plushenko with Yagudin at this point.

I disagree that Plushenko's footwork is sloppy. It is unorthodox and he puts so much energy into it that it may have given you the impression of not executing it well. In fact if he did not execute it right, he would have fallen.

Vash

antmanb · Apr 21, 2006

Vash01 said:
Yagudin was a couple years older than Plushenko. When these two were competing against each other, Yagudin was the more developed skater. However, Plushenko has improved significantly since 2002. It will be unfair to compare the 2002 Plushenko with Yagudin at this point.

I disagree that Plushenko's footwork is sloppy. It is unorthodox and he puts so much energy into it that it may have given you the impression of not executing it well. In fact if he did not execute it right, he would have fallen.

Vash

I wasn't making a comparision of 2002 Pluschenko with Yagudin of 2006. The last time i saw Yagudin skate was worlds 2002. The only thing i was re-iterating was that while Yagudin and Plushcenko competed against each other Yagudin was widley viewed as the more artisitc skater. Any analysis of Pluschenko now with Yagudin of then is pretty much redundant as i think HockeyFan stated.

Pluschenko's footwork gives me more than an impression that it is not executed well - i have really looked at that circular step sequence very carefully and in slow motion and he has trouble controlling the turns - especially the twizzles. He often falls out of the twizzles and you can see he comes out at different directions very often depending on where he looses balance when doing them. As with everything this is just my opinion but i don't think his basic turns are good enough and that is why every step sequence is ridiculously frenetic - to cover up mistakes. Its the only reason i can think of for the circular step sequence in his SP this past season which was so over the top and frenetic in the quietest part of the music.

Ant

Did not miss Plushenko at all!

soogar

psycho

hockeyfan228

Mathman

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

antmanb

antmanb

Vash01

antmanb

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