The Podium at Calgary

antmanb · Mar 29, 2006

Mathman said:
OK, you guys have worn me down, LOL.

I guess what I was nit-picking about is more language use. Suppose skater A gets 100 points and wins and skater B gets 99 points and finishes second.

I agree that it is quite possible for a fan to say, I thought the judges should have given more points to skater B and fewer to skater A. I agree that it is perfectly appropriate to say, the judges erred in giving skater A a +2 GOE on his triple Lutz, and the caller erred in downgrading skater B's triple Axel to a double.

I think it is quite OK to say, I thought skater B's interpretation of the music showed greater refinement than skater A's, and therefore skater B should have been awarded higher program component scores in this area.

I think it is quite OK to say, the New Judging System is an utter travesty if it allows for this kind of injustice to occur. And the judges are just a bunch of cheating crooks anyway.

What I object to is fans that say "Skater B really won."

No, skater A really won.

MM

Ok that's fair enough...but can we still say "wuz robbed"? And can we still say "should have won"...and can i have a personal exemption for my excessive disgust and outrage at the mockery of the silver medal that was awarded in the Pairs in Torino and still claim that the Zhangs came fourth according to any real application of the rules?!

(you can say noto that one but i'll argue it til i'm on my deathbed!!!!)

Ant

Vash01 · Mar 29, 2006

Both Elena and Sasha skated poorly in the QR. Sasha's marks were ridiculously high for a program with 2 falls and a step out. IMO the judges just wanted to make sure she would be in a position to win, or at least be in the final group. Had she been marked correctly the difference in the QR would have been smaller.

Sasha's SP marks were OK, although the tech marks seemed very high, considering the problem on the 3lutz. Elena also skated a great SP. She does not have the spins, spirals or the transitions Sasha has. Both had good execution overall. So I would say this one was probably OK.

Elena was undermarked in the LP, IMO. She had great execution while Sasha did not. Again, her weaknesses are the lack of positions, lines, transitions. The jumps were good except for the 3 flip which was badly lipped (but they don't deduct points for lipping and flutzing).

Had the marks been more in line with what the skaters actually did on the ice, and not based on what the skater is capable of doing/has done in the past, we might have seen Sokolova on the podium instead of Sasha. I cannot however imagine the judges leaving Sasha off the podium.

Vash

Mathman · Mar 29, 2006

Antman said:
"...and can i have a personal exemption for my excessive disgust and outrage at the mockery of the silver medal that was awarded in the Pairs in Torino and still claim that the Zhangs came fourth according to any real application of the rules?!

Well, of course. Where would we be without our fair allotment of excessive disgust and outrage? (But the ISU made it up to Pang and Tong by giving them Worlds instead.)

antmanb said:
Ok so the random selection happens once at the start....i wasn't sure about that hence the point i made before...in that case maybe i misremembered what i read and maybe it was that tossing of high and low can change the result by up to 2 points...might that be right?

No, it is the random draw that is the controversial feature. Despite everything I said above, you can see that there are still going to be arguments and bad feeling when a skater looks at the judges protocols and says, hey, most of the judges gave me high marks but just by bad luck all my highest marks got thrown out and all the other guy's high marks were kept.

This happened, I believe, in 2004 Trophee Lalique, where the majority of judges favored Sasha Cohen, but "at random" three Sasha judges were thrown out and the remaining panel then had a majority of Viktoria Volchkova judges, so Vicky won.

It would be better to eliminate this feature, IMHO.

The other thing -- trimming the mean by leaving out the highest and lowest for each skater, that is a pretty well accepted way to prevent one or two extreme marks from disproportionately affecting the mean. For instance, in the case of a keyboarding error (like the judge that entered 0.25 when he meant to say 6.25), that score would be thrown out and it would by quite unlikely that this error would affect the final results.

Antman said:
...every judge should know and be questioned as to why they gave a skater -1 on a jump that every other judge deemed to be +1, cos to me that looks like an input error that should be corrected, and if it isn't then the judge should be made to justify why they gave that mark...i also think if the judge consistently keeps getting it wrong and despite being sent for further training still gets it wrong, they should not be put on senior international panels again until they prove that they can actually judge correctly. How about three stirkes and they're out?

This is pretty much the way it works. Any judge's score that is outside of a three standard deviation range of the average of the other judges gets flagged for an "anomaly." Three anomalies and you are dragged before the court to justify your scores (you can bring videos, expert testimony, etc. to your hearing). There are various penalties for incompetance or the appearance of bias.

The only problem is, this is all done in secret somewhere in Speedy's sub-basement. The general public remains in the dark.

If you have the patience, you can read all about the "judging the judges" procedure here, LOL.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-167680-184898-91843-0-file,00.pdf

MM

Ptichka · Mar 29, 2006

Basically, I agree with everything MM said on this thread.

tarotx · Mar 29, 2006

Vash01 in cop points matter and Elena didn't max out her potential. Look at her base marks. Look at the base difference between Elena and Sasha. Differculty matters in COP. Point potential and points recieved matter. Elena lost the bronze because she hasn't adapted her programs fully to cop-which is probably why a lot of fans enjoyed her skate.

http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2006/wc06_Ladies_QB_scores.pdf

(http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2006/wc06_Ladies_QA_scores.pdf )

http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2006/wc06_Ladies_SP_scores.pdf

http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2006/wc06_Ladies_FS_scores.pdf

Vash01 · Mar 29, 2006

chuckm said:
Elena could have upgraded her PCS scores in the FS by attacking her program the way she did at Euros. If she had skated both the QR and the FS the way she did at Euros, she would probably have won the bronze medal, because her SP was very good.

Elena is a charming girl and her best skates are wonderful. But she does need to work on her non-jump elements, or she will always be at a disadvantage skating against skaters who have well-rounded skills. I think she will be seriously challenged at 2007 Euros and Worlds by Sarah Meier, who skated well at both Torino (8th) and Worlds (6th) and did well in all phases of the competition.

All of this is true. However, both Sasha and Elena skated poorly in the QR but only Sasha was overmarked.

In the LP again, Sasha was overmarked and Elena was not.

What needs to matter is how a skater skates in the competition, and Sasha did not skate well at all in two phases. IMO that's the real issue here. I don't think Elena will ever achieve Sasha's flexibility or beauty but she did deliver two great skates- SP & LP. The reason she may have lost the bronze is/may be that another skater was overmarked. I think that's what the crowd did not like when they booed her marks.

Vash

Doggygirl · Mar 29, 2006

antmanb said:
Ok so this is where i've been misinterpretting, i thought that the random selection was at least for each skater. I thought what happened was 12 judges judge, then once the skatrer finishes and the all of the marks are entered the random nine are selected, high and low amrks thrown and result calculated...repeat for each skater.

Are you saying that actually what happens is judges arrive on the day to mark the competition and the same nine judges are randomly selected and the other three sit there judging? Do the judges know who gets picked?

Ant

The random selection of judges happens for all of the skaters equally in said group. The same judges judge the same skaters. Among the panel of judges, none of them know (unless there is more broad cheating than I believe there is) which judges scores actually count. This is all outlined in the ISU rules.

DG

tarotx · Mar 29, 2006

The fact that Sasha was over marked is an opinion the judges didn't agree with.

On paper if Elena would have had a higher base she would have won the bronze.

The thing that is happening is that the tes base is affecting the pcs's. Now if that is what you having an issue with then that can be debated. It's the way the judges are marking every skater though so it's not just Sasha.

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 29, 2006

How does the Quali Rounds go? It used to be two sets of judges.

If Group A judges go on to judge Group B in the same day, that is a lot of work for them.

If there is a random draw for group A and a random draw for group B then there is more than likely, a difference.

Where oh where is Hockeyfan?

Joe

tarotx · Mar 29, 2006

The two qualifying groups had different judges.

http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2006/

antmanb · Mar 30, 2006

tarotx said:
The fact that Sasha was over marked is an opinion the judges didn't agree with.

On paper if Elena would have had a higher base she would have won the bronze.

The thing that is happening is that the tes base is affecting the pcs's. Now if that is what you having an issue with then that can be debated. It's the way the judges are marking every skater though so it's not just Sasha.

Its the final sentence i disagree with. The judges are not marking every skater the same way. They either track the TES when the tech is so good that they're too scared to give the PCS marks they deserve (Kimmie) or they have a previous medalist or someone with a good reputation who fluffs the tech ad needs holding up to kept in contention (Sasha and Irina). Skaters without the reputation get lower PCS because afterall its always been reputation that affected the second mark, call it presentation or PCS, nothing has changed....look at Chenjiang Li...this is an example of a skater who would get PCS tracking the tech if there was a splat fest above him and he put down his usually good technical program. He's been labelled as a technical skater and despite making big strides in his presentation, he doesn't get rewarded because he doesn't have the reputation. The only reason Kimmie got her LP PCS was because she had to be the winner and put down one of the most technically challenging programs we've seen since SLC ladies LP. NExt year she'll have the reputation of world gold medalist so i don't expect her PCS to go down again.

What about skaters like fleur maxwell who have no reputation for being competitive for the top spots? She genuinely skates better in the PCS than many of the top ladies but does she get the marks she deserves? No!

Ant

Doggygirl · Mar 30, 2006

Joesitz said:
How does the Quali Rounds go? It used to be two sets of judges.

If Group A judges go on to judge Group B in the same day, that is a lot of work for them.

If there is a random draw for group A and a random draw for group B then there is more than likely, a difference.

Where oh where is Hockeyfan?

Joe

Yes, the different Q groups have different judging panels. Maybe I misunderstood the question. WITHIN a given judging panel, the judges whose scores count are the SAME judges for all skaters in that segment of the event.

tarotx · Mar 30, 2006

antmanb the judges still have issues but at the Olympics fleur maxwell had a 31.3 base (scored a 26.77) but her pcs's were 39.27. The judeges are seemingly looking at the tech difficulty base mark and marking pcs's within a range of the tech base. That is what I meant by that . There are probably skaters that don't match my thinking but on a whole I think it's true.

http://www.isufs.org/results/owg2006/OWG06_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf (page 12)

curious · Mar 31, 2006

Vash01 said:
All of this is true. However, both Sasha and Elena skated poorly in the QR but only Sasha was overmarked.

In the LP again, Sasha was overmarked and Elena was not.

What needs to matter is how a skater skates in the competition, and Sasha did not skate well at all in two phases. IMO that's the real issue here. I don't think Elena will ever achieve Sasha's flexibility or beauty but she did deliver two great skates- SP & LP. The reason she may have lost the bronze is/may be that another skater was overmarked. I think that's what the crowd did not like when they booed her marks.

The real reason Elena lost the bronze she deserved is because she is russian. The judges don't want to leave the most overscore skater in the history of the sport off the podium(same thing happened in Torino)but that's nothing in compariosn with the disgusting judging in the pairs comp(same in Torino) with two chinese pairs winning gold and silver with falls over a clean skate by pettiks,but everything is good cause the evil russians did not win right?

flying camel · Apr 1, 2006

It is all about the points now. If your points don't add up to Gold, Silver, or Bronze your not going to get it.

R.D. · Apr 1, 2006

I did think Cohen scored a little high in the FS- I would have given her a lower score. But overall I think the right people won. People forget about the QR here. From what I heard Elena did REALLY badly there, and THAT's why she didn't get 3rd.

Theatregirl1122 · Apr 1, 2006

curious said:
The real reason Elena lost the bronze she deserved is because she is russian.

Ah, yes, because Russia is one of those countries that traditionally wins almost no figure skating medals due to the fact that judges hate their country. :rolleye:

But seriously. I really don't think that Elena had that great of a skate. Was she better than Sasha? Yes. But was she amazing? Not even close. I didn't think her extension was good and I didn't think she had any fire. I think the commentators agreed with me. It was a good performance, but not stellar and I don't know that I think she was robbed. I agree with many others who say that she received the scores she deserved but Sasha was over-scored. Much of Sasha's technical scores come from her contortionist positions and, as it seems to go with PCS, the only things that matter in PCS are TES and reputation. Actual performance in those categories tends to have nothing to do with it. (And, sometimes the sympathy vote comes into play.)

Vash01 · Apr 2, 2006

Actually Elena did skate with fire. Sasha did not. It is true that Elena does not have the extensions or the positions Sasha gets into, but overall she skated a stronger program. IMO Sasha's marks were too high in both QR and LP. It made Elena's marks appear too low in the LP Had Sasha been marked correctly, the gap between them would have narrowed and it could have produced a different result.

Vash

R.D. · Apr 2, 2006

yeah. But of course, the medallist always gets the benefit of the doubt. Elena was just too much of an "unknown" at this point, sadly.

P.S. still think the results were right. However, I would have given Cohen fewer points for the LP- that WAS a pretty bad performance (by her standard).

Vash01 · Apr 2, 2006

Theatregirl1122 said:
curious said:

Ah, yes, because Russia is one of those countries that traditionally wins almost no figure skating medals due to the fact that judges hate their country.

But seriously. I really don't think that Elena had that great of a skate. Was she better than Sasha? Yes. But was she amazing? Not even close. I didn't think her extension was good and I didn't think she had any fire. I think the commentators agreed with me. It was a good performance, but not stellar and I don't know that I think she was robbed. I agree with many others who say that she received the scores she deserved but Sasha was over-scored. Much of Sasha's technical scores come from her contortionist positions and, as it seems to go with PCS, the only things that matter in PCS are TES and reputation. Actual performance in those categories tends to have nothing to do with it. (And, sometimes the sympathy vote comes into play.)

Click to expand...

Theatregirl1122,

What you quoted as my post is not mine at all. I looked through the entire thread to see if I had posted the statement you attributed to me. The closest I could find was the last paragraph of my post #46 in which I started the sentence the same way but it appears that you changed the words. I did not state "because she is Russian". Yet you made it appear like my words. That is totally wrong and unethical. I strongly protest this attempt to modify my posts while they are in a quote.

Moderators, please make a note of this.

I will quote my post the way it actually is, in my next post.

Vash

The Podium at Calgary

antmanb

Vash01

Mathman

Ptichka

Forum translator

tarotx

Vash01

Doggygirl

tarotx

Joesitz (RIP)

tarotx

antmanb

Doggygirl

tarotx

curious

flying camel

R.D.

Theatregirl1122

Vash01

R.D.

Vash01

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