Are the old-school Russian pairs all gone now?

Spirit · Mar 28, 2006

I don't know Petrova & Tikhonov's history or where they were trained, but watching them skate, I couldn't help but think, They just look Russian. I don't know enough about skating to put it into words, but they just seemed to have a certain style that looked like old-school Russian, to me.

Now they have retired, and T&M have retired. Oleg Vasiliev and Tamara Moskvina are still coaching, but they don't have the resources and environment like they used to.

Will we see a pair with an old-school style of Russian skating again? I'm not talking about whether we'll see Russian pair skaters again, I'm wondering about an old-fashioned style and perfection. It seems like a huge statement to say that an era has come to a close, but is that the case?

Ptichka · Mar 28, 2006

Spirit, I think that unfortunately the era is indeed over. The system was based too much on kids who really had no other chance to get ahead other than through sport. They lived in a very cacooned world. It was good for the sport, but perhaps not so good for the society.

JonnyCoop · Mar 28, 2006

I won't even pretend to be nearly as knowledgable about Russian culture as Ptichka is, but to my mind, we could see that style again in the future. I did notice a rather "retro Russian" look to Totmiannina & Maranin's Oly LP, and as they are coached by Oleg Vasiliev, seems to me he might bring this style to the skating of a pair he might coach in the future.

hockeyfan228 · Mar 28, 2006

Borzenkova/Chuvulaev have more than a bit of Russian style, and I hope they get the third spot next year, but I suspect Sheshtakova/Lebedev will after working with Vassiliev.

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 28, 2006

As long as there are Russian teaches and coaches in any part of the world, there will be the Russian style of Pairs.

What I think is missing in Russia is the easy life these skaters had under the USSR. That, I think this has had the difficulty in finding new talent.

I watched Arina Martinova in Calgary. She has much talent, but I don't know if any great coach is interested in guiding her along the way. I'm sure the great Russian coaches charge quite a bit now (and why not?).

Joe

rjulie510 · Mar 28, 2006

For me personally Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze was the last great Russian pair. Petrova/Tikonov was a good pair but I wouldn't put them on the list next to all the other great ones. For awhile I thought Yulia Obertas had a potential to join this list if she finds the righ partner, but Obertas/Slanov isn't going anywhere.

hockeyfan228 · Mar 28, 2006

Joesitz said:
I watched Arina Martinova in Calgary. She has much talent, but I don't know if any great coach is interested in guiding her along the way. I'm sure the great Russian coaches charge quite a bit now (and why not?).

Russian coaches have subsidized the skating of their students, either with free ice time or through "paying" skaters or by having a wealthy husband, like Gedevanishvili's coach, Elena (Vodorezova) Buianova (who was the first or one of the first Russian women to win a European and Worlds medal, and said in an interview that she was lucky her husband was a successful businessman and she could continue to coach and make "hobby" wages.)

~Muffin~ · Mar 28, 2006

The Great Era is Over.

Vash01 · Mar 29, 2006

Petrova-Tikhnov' style belongs in the old school Russian pairs. I don't see any logical reason why Moskvina et al. could not coach more talented pairs in the years to come. However, I see that pairs skating/judging has changed to suit the chinese style. Gone are the finesse moves- unison, edges, positions and lines, 'two shall skate as one'. Pairs skating is a 'circus on ice' now. The chinese win medals by throwing their partners high up in the air or far across the ice. Those moves are impressive but to me it is not true pairs skating unless they are combined with the other skills. I see that the judges reward the circus more than the skating. Zhang & Zhang and Pang-Tong both beat a clean performance by Petrova-Tikhonov, when both chinese pairs had one fall each. Any Russian pair that sticks with the classical style is not likely to win a competition at this point. I think that is the reason the old school Russian pairs skating my disappear.

T&M won the Olympics by skating clean and by doing difficult sbs jumps which was their strength. In pairs moves they don't compare with the great pairs of the past- B&S, G&G, M&D. I like them a lot but i don't see them as classical Russian pairs skaters. The era of Russian dominance is certainly over but I will not be surprised if new pairs emerged in a few years from a very proud culture.

I don't see Mukhartova & Trankov going anywhere even though they won the junior worlds last year. Their body lines are very different, and they may do better with different partners (JMO). They have already switched partners to form this pair, so I don't know if they will do that again. Borzenkova-Chuvilaev have difficulty with sbs jumps (he in particular is very tall, although he does not use his height as an excuse for missing jumps), so they may not do well.

Vash

anything_for_skating · Mar 29, 2006

HEY, what's wrong with all of you?!?!?!
In four years time, Moskvina will turn Obertas/Slavnon into real champions!: :rock:

antmanb · Mar 29, 2006

rjulie510 said:
For me personally Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze was the last great Russian pair. Petrova/Tikonov was a good pair but I wouldn't put them on the list next to all the other great ones. For awhile I thought Yulia Obertas had a potential to join this list if she finds the righ partner, but Obertas/Slanov isn't going anywhere.

And actually after watching worlds i no longer think its him that's the problem. This pair has always been touted as the pair where she is so strong and beautiful and a natural pairs skater. As far as i can see she has sat around stagnating while he's worked his b******s off to become a better pairs skater - his jumps have improved, his footwork in the lifts has certainly improved (he's not the best but he was pretty scary a couple of seasons ago so the improvement is great), his presentation has become more polished and i don't think she's done very much to improve at all. I think her jumps have gotten weaker - partly exacerbated by the fact she clearly can't land a double axel to save her life and has been forced to put it in the program this year because of the rule change for pairs SBS jumps. I think Julia needs to start improving fast to keep up with Slavnov.

Ant

hockeyfan228 · Mar 29, 2006

antmanb said:
And actually after watching worlds i no longer think its him that's the problem. This pair has always been touted as the pair where she is so strong and beautiful and a natural pairs skater. As far as i can see she has sat around stagnating while he's worked his b******s off to become a better pairs skater - his jumps have improved, his footwork in the lifts has certainly improved (he's not the best but he was pretty scary a couple of seasons ago so the improvement is great), his presentation has become more polished and i don't think she's done very much to improve at all. I think her jumps have gotten weaker - partly exacerbated by the fact she clearly can't land a double axel to save her life and has been forced to put it in the program this year because of the rule change for pairs SBS jumps. I think Julia needs to start improving fast to keep up with Slavnov.
Ant

I quoted your whole post because ITA with everything you said. He has worked very hard, especially on his posture and trying to match her line, and has matured into quite a nice partner. (I think much better than Trankov or Lebedev.) Obertas is lucky to have him.

Given the number of points awarded to a 3A (3.5) vs. a 2T (1.3), and given the deductions she has on the Axel, I think they'd be better off trying another (toe) double for their second jump. I know there's a macho factor involved that transcends the point values -- i.e. if you want to be at the top of the podium, you can't do junior elements -- but they gain so much else on other levels, being one of the few teams to do the Throw 3Flip (and if they'd put back their 4Tw, they'd get back macho points).

attyfan · Mar 29, 2006

Ptichka said:
Spirit, I think that unfortunately the era is indeed over. The system was based too much on kids who really had no other chance to get ahead other than through sport. They lived in a very cacooned world. It was good for the sport, but perhaps not so good for the society.

From the fluffs, it seems that the Chinese pairs skaters seem to live in a cocooned world, also, totally isolated from the rest of the world -- and the government picking up the expenses. Could the next team with that "old school Russian style" be Chinese?

antmanb · Mar 29, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
I quoted your whole post because ITA with everything you said. He has worked very hard, especially on his posture and trying to match her line, and has matured into quite a nice partner. (I think much better than Trankov or Lebedev.) Obertas is lucky to have him.

Given the number of points awarded to a 3A (3.5) vs. a 2T (1.3), and given the deductions she has on the Axel, I think they'd be better off trying another (toe) double for their second jump. I know there's a macho factor involved that transcends the point values -- i.e. if you want to be at the top of the podium, you can't do junior elements -- but they gain so much else on other levels, being one of the few teams to do the Throw 3Flip (and if they'd put back their 4Tw, they'd get back macho points).

I agree or even a good 2/2 like 2Lz/2lp and do it in combination instead of sequence and it would be good.

Ant

Vash01 · Mar 29, 2006

antmanb said:
And actually after watching worlds i no longer think its him that's the problem. This pair has always been touted as the pair where she is so strong and beautiful and a natural pairs skater. As far as i can see she has sat around stagnating while he's worked his b******s off to become a better pairs skater - his jumps have improved, his footwork in the lifts has certainly improved (he's not the best but he was pretty scary a couple of seasons ago so the improvement is great), his presentation has become more polished and i don't think she's done very much to improve at all. I think her jumps have gotten weaker - partly exacerbated by the fact she clearly can't land a double axel to save her life and has been forced to put it in the program this year because of the rule change for pairs SBS jumps. I think Julia needs to start improving fast to keep up with Slavnov.

Ant

I had exactly the same impression at these worlds. Up to this point I was thinking that Julia was the talented one and Sergei had to catch up. I was fairly impressed with Sergei at worlds; he has improved his posture and his overall presentation. He seems to almost always land the jumps. He may never become Sikharulidze or Dmitriev but he can be a very solid partner. Julia on the other hand did not impress me at all. She no longer appears like that incredibly talented skater. I wonder if Tamara could bring in a jumps coach for her? Her mistakes are killing any chances this pair may have of making it to the podium. I also heard that Julia is tough to get along with. That's a bad combination. Unless she starts fixing her technical problems this pair is not going anywhere. Afterall, Tamara can only do so much.

Another question is- why are they not going for the quad twist?

Vash

elv · Mar 29, 2006

Another question is- why are they not going for the quad twist?

I heard Sergei had a hand injury and they have stopped to do it temporarily.

76olympics · Mar 29, 2006

G and G actually did a quad twist-but few noticed it! Katia said it was too much energy for too little reward in the marks--so they dropped it. Their triple twist was so huge that I wasn't surprised at all.

Vash01 · Mar 29, 2006

76olympics said:
G and G actually did a quad twist-but few noticed it! Katia said it was too much energy for too little reward in the marks--so they dropped it. Their triple twist was so huge that I wasn't surprised at all.

Yes, I had read about it. Another pair had done it before them, so there have been at least one before them and two after them (Z&Z and O&S). Under the COP it definitely would collect more points if completed. So O&S would benefit from it, although it seems from another post that Sergei had hurt his hand so they are not doing it.

Vash

antmanb · Mar 30, 2006

[deleted - repeat post!]

anything_for_skating · Mar 30, 2006

rjulie510 said:
For me personally Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze was the last great Russian pair. Petrova/Tikonov was a good pair but I wouldn't put them on the list next to all the other great ones. For awhile I thought Yulia Obertas had a potential to join this list if she finds the righ partner, but Obertas/Slanov isn't going anywhere.

Bereznaya and Sikharulidze are the greatest pair ever!!!

But hey, Petrova and Tkhonov are one of the greatest also!!!

And in four years time, Moskvina will turn Obertas/Slavnov into real champions!

Are the old-school Russian pairs all gone now?

Spirit

Ptichka

Forum translator

JonnyCoop

hockeyfan228

Joesitz (RIP)

rjulie510

hockeyfan228

~Muffin~

Match Penalty

Vash01

anything_for_skating

antmanb

hockeyfan228

attyfan

Custom Title

antmanb

Vash01

elv

76olympics

Vash01

antmanb

anything_for_skating

Similar threads

Connect with us