Can Over-20 Skaters Increase Their Technical

I think they've peaked and it is a question of going down hill or maintaining their peak. Many skaters are reusing familiar music (unheard of before); stopped working on 3x3s (Ladies); quad attempts too late in life?

What is it with Cohen, Kwan, Slutskaya, Arakawa; etc. as compared to Meissner, Asada, Taylor, etc. [The boys seem to be maintaining their skills but not increasing them.]

Your take and name names.

Joe

Joesitz said:

I think they've peaked and it is a question of going down hill or maintaining their peak. Many skaters are reusing familiar music (unheard of before); stopped working on 3x3s (Ladies); quad attempts too late in life?

What is it with Cohen, Kwan, Slutskaya, Arakawa; etc. as compared to Meissner, Asada, Taylor, etc. [The boys seem to be maintaining their skills but not increasing them.]

Your take and name names.

Joe

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Just for nitpicking's sake i'd change the term technical for jumps, since all of the skaters in your list above improved and carried on improving their spins, footwork, spirals, edging, speed etc its only a reference to jumps.

Actually in your list above i'd take all of the ladies in the first part off except Kwan and maybe Irina. To my mind Cohen has always had the same jump content. There was talk of her trying quad sals very early on but that soon went away and in competition she's pretty much been doing the same jumps with about the same level of success. Arakawa again i wouldn't have on the list because i don't think her skills went down - she was still doing the 3/3s in practice but having assessed the field in Torino decided it wasn't worth the risk so i wouldn't say she's not kept up. Irina is another one who has always had the same skill set - full set of triples and she's played with nearly every 3/3 combination there is. The 3Lp as the back half has always been there, either on the sal or the lutz or both and as recently as Moscow worlds landed the 3Lz/3Lp and in the season leading up to Torino landed other 3/3s. Again one bad skate in Torino does not mean she didn't keep up her skills. Kwan is the only one we saw consistently lay down 7 triple programs over many many seasons, sometimes including the 3/3 and other times not. She is the only one who we can say "lost" some of her jumping ability and scaled back her jump schedule by removing the 3Lp from her LPs.

Its an interesting question because if you look at skaters like Kwan and Slutskaya (who must have spent at least some of their very early childhood studying figures) - they came onto the international senior circuit with good solid triple jumps, as they got older the added more jumps, 3/3s fuller successful jump schedule and then peaked and/or declined a little.

The young girls you mention - Asada and Meissner - they've come out at the youngess possible ages with potentially their full amount of jumps - Meissner's already landed a 3A and then done programs with two 3/3s...the onyl place she can go from here that is anything more than "maitaining her peak" is to land an 8 triple program with two 3/3s or a program including any of those things plus a quad. Asada is the same - short of now landing the quad loop she's been practising what can she do that's any more than "maintaining her peak"? Maybe land 3 sal and/or 3T?!

I suppose what i'm saying is that the younger group aren't upping the ante - they've come out all guns pblazing and are unlikely to up their jumps anymore.

Ant

For the men, there is a group of guys in their very early twenties who are only a quad away from the big time. I, too, wonder if it is too late?

Weir. He has landed them in practice, when he has his "aura" together, his mojo working and his Camille on. But too often lately -- as RavynRant put it -- "You picked a fine time to leave me, Camille."

Lysacek. He made it all the way around and didn't fall down in the World Championship! I'm not sure if this will become a reliable element for him or not.

Buttle. He gives it the old college try and picks up some CoP points for the effort, but his heart is elsewhere than in doing more and more revolutions.

When you don't have a quad, you give away a gob of points in the NJS, for the simple reason that without a quad you can't make full use of all your jumping passes because of Zayak restrictions.

MM

I think Elena Sokolova did improve her jumps when she was past 20. In the 2003 season, she landed many triple/triples, which she hadn't done before, and I think she was in her early 20s then. However, as we all know, those triple/triples didn't really "stick" for her; I think it's been a number of years since she consistently landed them.

Nancy Kerrigan really did improve her jumps in the 1994 Olympic year, when she was 25 or so, I think. I don't think Nancy really added any new jumps that year, but she did become much more consistent in landing the jumps she had.

Overall though, I can't think of many cases of skaters past 20 who actually improved their jumps, at least on the women's side.

Mathman said:

For the men, there is a group of guys in their very early twenties who are only a quad away from the big time. I, too, wonder if it is too late?

Weir. He has landed them in practice, when he has his "aura" together, his mojo working and his Camille on. But too often lately -- as RavynRant put it -- "You picked a fine time to leave me, Camille."

Lysacek. He made it all the way around and didn't fall down in the World Championship! I'm not sure if this will become a reliable element for him or not.

Buttle. He gives it the old college try and picks up some CoP points for the effort, but his heart is elsewhere than in doing more and more revolutions.

When you don't have a quad, you give away a gob of points in the NJS, for the simple reason that without a quad you can't make full use of all your jumping passes because of Zayak restrictions.

MM

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about the aura, mojo and camille comments!!!

Actually thinking of the men, that's a tough one isn't it? Are we only talking competition success or are we talking practice? Even though he didn't land it ever in competition Todd Eldredge did start consistently hitting the 4T in practice, the combinations of 4T/2T and 4T/3T came and went but he started getting a good succes rate on the solo quad and that was certainly past the age of 22.

Didn't Kurt Browning also stand a quad toe (though not clean on one foot) 10 years after he landed the first quad in competition?

I seem to recall some other pro skaters suddenly deciding they would try to do the first pro quad, maybe jumping Jo, or Boitano?

If we are talking about practice not just competition ice then i'm fairly sure Stojko's quad Sals and quad Lutzes came in practice at or around the age of 22. And there are reports of him landing the quad flip too. I think i read a practice report for canadians one year where elvis did a full clean run through including the quad toe combination and a solo quad salchow.

Going back even further - what about Galindo...didn't he struggle with the 3A quite badly until his dream season? How old was he? Would you include Galindo in that given that it was more a handful of competitions?

Ant

Joesitz said:

I think they've peaked and it is a question of going down hill or maintaining their peak. Many skaters are reusing familiar music (unheard of before); stopped working on 3x3s (Ladies); quad attempts too late in life?

What is it with Cohen, Kwan, Slutskaya, Arakawa; etc. as compared to Meissner, Asada, Taylor, etc. [The boys seem to be maintaining their skills but not increasing them.]

Your take and name names.

Joe

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Sorry to keep posting on this but i guess you could look at the Pairs skaters too.

While it may not be adding the type of jump i think Zagorska&Suidek have, later in their carreers added many thing to their repetoire and from their mid 20s. They had been doing a throw double axel as their second throw jump in the LP for years until they went to train in Canada and then added the loop to have two throw triples. They also went from having weak SBS 3Ts (her in particular) to getting them much stronger and in unison (which given their size differential was pretty impressive) to then adding a second set of SBS 3Ts until the pair SBS jump rule change.

Also Shen&Zhao - i know he's early 30s, how old is she? And how old was she when they started training the throw quad salchow? They started training it in the summer of 2001 and she near as damnit held it for a second or 2 in SLC and landed more than a few on the practice ice...but how old was she?

Ant

antmanb said:

...
Its an interesting question because if you look at skaters like Kwan and Slutskaya (who must have spent at least some of their very early childhood studying figures) - they came onto the international senior circuit with good solid triple jumps, as they got older the added more jumps, 3/3s fuller successful jump schedule and then peaked and/or declined a little.

The young girls you mention - Asada and Meissner - they've come out at the youngess possible ages with potentially their full amount of jumps - Meissner's already landed a 3A and then done programs with two 3/3s...the onyl place she can go from here that is anything more than "maitaining her peak" is to land an 8 triple program with two 3/3s or a program including any of those things plus a quad. Asada is the same - short of now landing the quad loop she's been practising what can she do that's any more than "maintaining her peak"? Maybe land 3 sal and/or 3T?!

I suppose what i'm saying is that the younger group aren't upping the ante - they've come out all guns pblazing and are unlikely to up their jumps anymore.

Ant

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I think that as skaters continue, their bodies become less and less capable of increasing the difficulty of the jumps, so they develop other skills. Look at what happened to Miki Ando. It will be interesting to see what puberty and/or a few years of competitive strain on the body does to Asada, Meissner, etc.,

MM - on Johnny's mojo, etc.

How old was Michael Weiss when he added his quad? (although usually 2 footed).

DG

eyria said:

Overall though, I can't think of many cases of skaters past 20 who actually improved their jumps, at least on the women's side.

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I can't think of very many either, but one who comes to my mind is Tatyana Malinina. At her peak (the 97-98 and especially the 98-99 seasons), she just suddenly blew on with these beautiful high jumps, and she was about 25 at the time; only Maria Butrskaya was older among the top level ladies.

Someone said (I don't think I have the quote around anywhere), when referring to late 70s national champ Charlie Tickner, who got off to a late start in his skating career (not really starting to train seriously until about high school), that "usually in order for a man to jump like that the technique must be learned before he learns to shave." I'm not sure what the female equivalant of this would be, but basically this seems to be true. Each skater's individual repertoire of jumps seems to be pretty much set by 18 or 19 (in some cases earlier) and not much gets added to it after that. Whether it's a mental thing or whether it's just worn-out knees or a combination of both, who knows?

Interesting question... usually women "mature" a bit earlier than men, and their body structure changes, so I think that improving over the age of 20 is a little bit easier for men than for women...but I can be absolutely wrong

Mathman said:

Lysacek. He made it all the way around and didn't fall down in the World Championship! I'm not sure if this will become a reliable element for him or not.

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Unfortunately Evan has had serious problems with both his hips in the last two years, and this has affected his jumps and spins department, especially the quads; if he will resolve those healt issues, I think he will do them without problems, because he's a very good jumper.

Doggygirl said:

MM - on Johnny's mojo, etc.

How old was Michael Weiss when he added his quad? (although usually 2 footed).

DG

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I think he was young - he had the quad early - his first attempted quad lutz in competition was in the Nagano Olympics in 1998 and by then he'd been successfully landing or two fotting the quad toe in competition for i think at least one of not two seasons before...so that would put it at least to 1996...assuming he's not turned 30 yet and i woulnd;t think he's older than 28 he'd be late teens i think when his quad was working.

Ant

harmonie said:

Interesting question... usually women "mature" a bit earlier than men, and their body structure changes, so I think that improving over the age of 20 is a little bit easier for men than for women...but I can be absolutely wrong


Unfortunately Evan has had serious problems with both his hips in the last two years, and this has affected his jumps and spins department, especially the quads; if he will resolve those healt issues, I think he will do them without problems, because he's a very good jumper.

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The other thing to consider is that women tend to get the rotations easier because of the smaller bodies before puberty - look at all the jumping beans in ladies who suddnely go through puberty and can't do it anymore, whereas the men tend to get better at jumps with age because of the muscle mass they gain from puberty while simultaneously not suddenly getting hips an breasts to contend with. Its gets easier for men as they go through puberty whereas it gets harder for the ladies.

Ant

Ant, you beat me to writing about pairs. Those very often increase their difficulty well into their 20's. Part of it I think is that for pairs many things come easier the longer the two partners are together, allowing for more difficult elements.

Two pairs examples: Petrova/Tikhonov adding SBS 3Sal's (2004?) and Inoue/Baldwin completing a Throw 3A in three consecutive competitions.

Ptichka said:

Ant, you beat me to writing about pairs. Those very often increase their difficulty well into their 20's. Part of it I think is that for pairs many things come easier the longer the two partners are together, allowing for more difficult elements.

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I agree Ptichka - i think that the longer a pair are together the more "pair like" they become and i think things start coming easier - the trust in the lifts and throws, that "ESP" connection that the skaters just get allow them to do harder things. I think part of the reason we've not seen harder SBS triples from the pairs is because the edge jumps are so difficult to get set up equally. The toe jumps can (especially toe and flip which have to be) set up straight which makes it much easier for thepair to set them up the same but the edge jumps are much more difficult. I've been really impressed with the Zhangs entrance to it on the circle. T&M set up up straight down the rink with a mohawk entrance to straighten it up to get in perfect unison.

I think the acrobatic circus tricks the CoP has imposed on the pairs the last couple of seasons really shows how much the pairs have had to work to improve their technical skills.

Whether or not this has improved pair skating, is an entirely different question!

Ant

Don't forget Rena and John and the Throw 3A!!!

Joe

Improved after 20

The two I'm thinking of for improvement after 20 are both men (and I think the original poster mentioned that it is primarily woman who don't seem to improve after 20).

Savoe - what a season he's had. He's 24, right?
Yaguden - he was 22 at Salt Lake City. His improvement those last two years was phenominal. Perhaps it's a matter of getting the right coach?

Linny
Wait, just thought of a woman: Fumie. She's never had success before like this year and she's over 20!

Linny said:

The two I'm thinking of for improvement after 20 are both men (and I think the original poster mentioned that it is primarily woman who don't seem to improve after 20).

Savoe - what a season he's had. He's 24, right?
Yaguden - he was 22 at Salt Lake City. His improvement those last two years was phenominal. Perhaps it's a matter of getting the right coach?

Linny
Wait, just thought of a woman: Fumie. She's never had success before like this year and she's over 20!

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I think the question was more around jumps than around results. Yagudin bowed out at the peak of his talent but he'd been doing the quad in combination for years it wasn't a "new" jump. Savoie - i don't really know much about his skating.

Also with Fumie - she's not doing anything now, jump wise, that she wasn't doing 6 years ago.

Ant

antmanb said:

I think he was young - he had the quad early - his first attempted quad lutz in competition was in the Nagano Olympics in 1998 and by then he'd been successfully landing or two fotting the quad toe in competition for i think at least one of not two seasons before...so that would put it at least to 1996...assuming he's not turned 30 yet and i woulnd;t think he's older than 28 he'd be late teens i think when his quad was working.

Ant

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Thanks Ant. As you can probably tell, the years are flying by much faster for me than I care to think about!!

DG

Doggygirl said:

Thanks Ant. As you can probably tell, the years are flying by much faster for me than I care to think about!!

DG

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I can believe that - when i thought about Nagano and it being 8 years ago i had a moment of disbelief...the most scary thing is that we're well past the half way point of this decade, and i still think anything around the mid 90s is only a couple of years ago!!!!

Ant