Irina Article In Russian

Mathman · Apr 11, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
Except for the part about giving the gold away to Arakawa, because, of course, Arakawa couldn't have beaten her on her own.

I could forgive that part, though. I think she meant it in the sense of being mad at herself for handing the contest to Arakawa without a fight.

Then again, there was all that wuzrobbin' over Sasha's second place finish.

(IMHO I still say it should have been Arakawa, Rochette, Suguri, Cohen, a few others, Michelle phoning it in from her hospital bed in California, then Irina's sad sack effort -- the only thing worse this year was Sasha's LP at Worlds.)

MM

R.D. · Apr 11, 2006

but she seems awfully unhappy for the most part on this American tour. If she has moral or ethical doubts or concerns and feels that strongly about them, perhaps she should just boycott COI and skate in European/Japanese shows. AHHH....but there certainly isn't as much money in that.

Yup.

Emphasis added by me.

I was proud of her after her loss in Turino. I expected a hailstorm of negatively tinged comments in the event of a loss, but I think she handled herself very well in this case. She was visibly disappointed, but she climbed that podium and put on her bravest face. No Arakawa bashing. No Cohen bashing. I was very pleased. I wish her all the best......and, if it is in her heart (and body), I wish her a few more stellar amateur competitions.

Perhaps. Then, there's that tidbit about her throwing her medal away. She denies it, but who knows? Maybe it's just something that happened in the heat of the moment when she couldn't control her emotions. Or maybe someone made it up.

She is stating an opinion. One that I would like her to be accountable for.

And you can wish to make your statement by not going to COI or any competitions Irina is in

antmanb · Apr 12, 2006

Red Dog said:
And I don't have an issue with Irina not liking America. She's in good company there. But I DO have an issue with her hypocrisy. Why be all friendly and cheerful to one party only to dump on them elsewhere, thinking they'll never find out? Sounds to me as if she's doing exactly the same thing that she accuses Americans of doing. Go figure

Maybe she's spent so much time in the US, she hasn't realised how americanised she's become

(I'm joking by the way!)

Ant

antmanb · Apr 12, 2006

BronzeisGolden said:
I sort of got that feeling as well after reading the entire article. True, this "Say something nice to the face, but wait to tell the truth until the person turns around" is an almost palpable element in many parts of American society. But, as Red Dog says, it seems Irina is guily of doing the same thing....and in this very article. She is only human, and I know this season has been extremely difficult.....but she seems awfully unhappy for the most part on this American tour. If she has moral or ethical doubts or concerns and feels that strongly about them, perhaps she should just boycott COI and skate in European/Japanese shows. AHHH....but there certainly isn't as much money in that.
I like Irina. She is candid without being nasty (most of the time). Yet, I will say that I am so over the "Robbed in SLC" issue that she brings up after a loss. She talks about it like it is a widely accepted opinion and that others don't talk of it much out of courtesy. I don't think she was robbed in SLC. She and Kwan succumbed to Olympic pressure and lost out to the skater that happened to give the performance of a lifetime. Irina was tenative, flat, and her jumps were shaky. I was proud of her after her loss in Turino. I expected a hailstorm of negatively tinged comments in the event of a loss, but I think she handled herself very well in this case. She was visibly disappointed, but she climbed that podium and put on her bravest face. No Arakawa bashing. No Cohen bashing. I was very pleased. I wish her all the best......and, if it is in her heart (and body), I wish her a few more stellar amateur competitions. Maybe even one more classic (healthy) Kwan vs. Slutskaya battle!

I totally agree with what you've said but just wanted to throw in that the theory that Irina wuz robbed of the gold in SLC occurs because of the SP not the LP - i don't think anyone disputes the LP results (as far as i'm aware) but in the SP Kwan was given the nod over her. There is an argument that given Irina's harder combination jump and faster harder spins that Irina should have come first in the SP rather than Kwan (personally i'm indifferent and my preference of style, and the fact i still see no steps into Irina's triple flip, would give the nod to Kwan) but i think a very strong argument can be made for slutskaya getting the SP, if she had, then Sarah would have needed someone else to beat Slutskaya in the free in order to win and she (slutskaya would have walked away with the gold).

I think that sadest part is that Slutskaya has still not gotten over the loss in SLC - maybe she had and missing out in Torino brought all of the old demons out again? I think she should get some counselling or something to help her through this - it must be difficult but she needs to put this to bed now or it will haunt her for the rest of her life....now i have a ridiculous image of Irina clunking around her house age 65 in her skates and the froufrou turquoise feathery outfit from her first Europeans win a la whatever happened to baby jane!!!!

Ant

krenseby · Apr 12, 2006

Actually

antmanb said:
I totally agree with what you've said but just wanted to throw in that the theory that Irina wuz robbed of the gold in SLC occurs because of the SP not the LP - i don't think anyone disputes the LP results (as far as i'm aware) but in the SP Kwan was given the nod over her. There is an argument that given Irina's harder combination jump and faster harder spins that Irina should have come first in the SP rather than Kwan (personally i'm indifferent and my preference of style, and the fact i still see no steps into Irina's triple flip, would give the nod to Kwan) but i think a very strong argument can be made for slutskaya getting the SP, if she had, then Sarah would have needed someone else to beat Slutskaya in the free in order to win and she (slutskaya would have walked away with the gold).

I think that sadest part is that Slutskaya has still not gotten over the loss in SLC - maybe she had and missing out in Torino brought all of the old demons out again? I think she should get some counselling or something to help her through this - it must be difficult but she needs to put this to bed now or it will haunt her for the rest of her life....now i have a ridiculous image of Irina clunking around her house age 65 in her skates and the froufrou turquoise feathery outfit from her first Europeans win a la whatever happened to baby jane!!!!

Ant

Actually I think it all boils down to Irina feeling guilty for choking during the Olympics. You could argue that she should have won the SP, but even if that were plausible, when your performance is close in quality to that of your competitor, sometimes the competitor edges you out. Close calls always end up disappointing one skater or the other. Judging is not perfect. That said, Irina could have hit the ball out of the park during her long program. She always skates conservatively during the Olympics. In fact, you can tell from watching her Olympic programs, that she is not enjoying herself, not giving everything she's got. Nervous and cautious, it seems like she wants the whole thing to be over instead of letting herself be in the moment. Her nerves got the best of her and that's why she never could become Olympic Champion. As much as people respect Irina, she never had what it takes to make it to the top of the Olympic podium. Olympic Champions have nerves of steel and Irina is a scaredy-cat come Olympic time. Obviously she didn't want to be an Olympic whimp but that's what she ended up being. She has to get off her high horse and own up to her status as second-rate Olympian.

antmanb · Apr 12, 2006

krenseby said:
Actually I think it all boils down to Irina feeling guilty for choking during the Olympics. You could argue that she should have won the SP, but even if that were plausible, when your performance is close in quality to that of your competitor, sometimes the competitor edges you out. Close calls always end up disappointing one skater or the other. Judging is not perfect. That said, Irina could have hit the ball out of the park during her long program. She always skates conservatively during the Olympics. In fact, you can tell from watching her Olympic programs, that she is not enjoying herself, not giving everything she's got. Nervous and cautious, it seems like she wants the whole thing to be over instead of letting herself be in the moment. Her nerves got the best of her and that's why she never could become Olympic Champion. As much as people respect Irina, she never had what it takes to make it to the top of the Olympic podium. Olympic Champions have nerves of steel and Irina is a scaredy-cat come Olympic time. Obviously she didn't want to be an Olympic whimp but that's what she ended up being. She has to get off her high horse and own up to her status as second-rate Olympian.

Of course you should preface all of that statement as your opinion, since actually when you watch all three of her Olympics performances there is no sign of holding back or being an "Olympics whimp" in her first Olympics in Nagano - she performed extremely well in the LP and landed a 3/3 - no mean feat. I agree that she didn't skate how she could have done in the LPs in SLC or in Torino. But that doesn't take anything away from her ability.

As far as being a "second-rate Olympian" you might think so but i certainly don't, just like i don't think of Kwan as a second rate Olympian for the same Olympic medal record as Irina, or Stojko, or Browning. If anyone short of the title is "second rate" or worse than you must not get very much out of watching hte Olympics.

Ant

krenseby · Apr 12, 2006

Re:

antmanb said:
Of course you should preface all of that statement as your opinion, since actually when you watch all three of her Olympics performances there is no sign of holding back or being an "Olympics whimp" in her first Olympics in Nagano - she performed extremely well in the LP and landed a 3/3 - no mean feat. I agree that she didn't skate how she could have done in the LPs in SLC or in Torino. But that doesn't take anything away from her ability.

As far as being a "second-rate Olympian" you might think so but i certainly don't, just like i don't think of Kwan as a second rate Olympian for the same Olympic medal record as Irina, or Stojko, or Browning. If anyone short of the title is "second rate" or worse than you must not get very much out of watching hte Olympics.

Ant

Well I am not condemning her ability or accomplishments. I am saying though that she knows that she was capable of more and it was her own weaknesses that brought her down, that made her perform below her potential at the Olympics in SLC and Torino. She worked her to master all her elements and be consistent in executing them, but didn't come through during the two biggest competitions in her life. It's no wonder she feels very devasted and perceives herself to have failed. So yes, despite all her accomplishments, I can understand why she would be bitter.

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 12, 2006

kyla2 said:
Joe, anyone can say whatever they like. But they sure as hell better be prepared for the consequences. As far as the general public not being aware of her comments, that may be true, it also may not be true. It remains to be seen at the COI performances. As for those who took my comment about not wanting her as a friend as an actual fact, get a grip, it was meant figuritively because I feel she is untrustworthy. But I think you knew that, didn't you. I do agree Joe that she hasn't recovered from the 2002 Olympics and somehow blames that on us. She should blame it on the Canadians (but I won't rehash that point). As for the rest of the world not liking us (for those of you who have made this point), who cares? At least they aren't skating in our rinks IN THE USA, pretending to like us, while raking in our money. As for Irina preaching a "screed," that's nonsense. She is stating an opinion. One that I would like her to be accountable for.

Joe, anyone can say whatever they like. But they sure as hell better be prepared for the consequences. Yup! I think we had the same course in psychology.

Being a friend of Irina is, imo, up to the parties concerned. I have no interest in being friends with any athletes except to have a beer with them for one evening.

I do care about the rest of the world and I do liked to be liked but if my beliefs turn someone off, hey, then I say so what. Irina has her own beliefs.

I think the Russians in general who have trained in the US are happy to leave the US. Why not? If the cultural ties are strong for them, they should return. Irina, however, never trained and lived in the US. She only worked the tour and that can be grinding night after night and travelling.

I believe those tours plus the memory of 2002 Olys is still hurting her. How can she get over all this? - not easy. The 2006 Olys would have worked if she had won - but it didn't happen.

I'm hoping she does something about resolving this. I just can't get worked up about things she is saying without thinking.

Joe

attyfan · Apr 12, 2006

I can understand why some people would be bitter about Oly disappointments, but there gets to be a point where people expect you to move on -- losing an OGM is not like losing a loved one. For example, I think many people would have been very sympathetic and understanding if, after Tonya pleaded guilty to (essentially) being an accessory after the fact, MK said that she felt she had been robbed of a chance to skate at Olys, but we would not feel the same way if she kept talking about it four years later.

R.D. · Apr 12, 2006

Well, but if it's something you've been working so hard for, and you had a chance to get it, I imagine it COULD feel like losing a "loved one"...in the moment, that is.

attyfan · Apr 12, 2006

Red Dog said:
Well, but if it's something you've been working so hard for, and you had a chance to get it, I imagine it COULD feel like losing a "loved one"...in the moment, that is.

In the moment -- yes. Not four years later.

curious · Apr 12, 2006

I don't understand why certain people who don't like Irina continue to get upset with her OPINIONS in interviews. The whole thing is ridiculous :biggrin:

Kwanford Wife · Apr 12, 2006

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't be so quick to judge... There is no doubt in my mind that if I had to leave this wonderfully tacky country of mine to work in Russia where I didn't know anyone and had no real friends to hang with, I'd whine about the only good things in Russia were the minks & the vodka...

As for SLC ~ I'm sure she's not the only person who feels robbed by those games... lots o' drama & strange results and that's ok... I'm still pissed about losing the Homecoming Queen title back in high school... sometimes you didn't win the silver, you lost the gold...

And another thing... Vegas rocks! Can't stay more than three days at a time, but still...

hockeyfan228 · Apr 12, 2006

There was a bad call in the last inning of the sixth game of the St. Louis/Kansas City World Series playoff that allowed Kansas City to get back in the series. That could be replayed over and over again on videotape, from every angle, and it wasn't even close.

In the SLC SP Kwan had a faulty landing on a 3F and possibly a flatz. Cohen had a flutz and an issue with closing the circle on her step sequence that I didn't see, but was described in many posts. Slutskaya had a serious break -- requiring a deduction -- between her steps and 3F and major travelling on at least one spin. Nonetheless, Slutskaya had the highest tech scores from six of nine judges, ties with Kwan from two, and lower tech scores from one judge, Hrachovcova (Slovak Republic). While not all judges deducted for Kwan's faulty 3F, not all judges deducted for Slutskaya's flaws, either. She lost by the pre score, which Kwan had dominated in most of their head-to-head competition. Kwan skated a high-quality Rachmaninoff SP, and there was no reason for her pre scores to have suffered. She received 5.9's across the board.

Slutskaya may feel wuzrobbed, but it is a highly debated wuzrobbed, not a given.

Ptichka · Apr 12, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
Slutskaya may feel wuzrobbed, but it is a highly debated wuzrobbed, not a given.

ITA. However, perhaps believing it was the only way she could go on. I once read an interview with a sports psychologist who was saying that their job is very different from that of a regular shrink. The latter have to make a person healthy to live their lives, the former have to make athletes be the best athletes they can be. What I'm getting at is that while normally I would agree that such an attitude is not very healthy, I am hesitant to make that call in this case.

Mathman · Apr 12, 2006

That's an interesting point Ptichka.

Boy, I don't know, though. I can't think it is good for either athletes or "ordinary people" to go through life thinking the judges hate me, I never get a break, everybody is cheating for my opponent, they'll never let me win no matter what I do.

I remember when Michelle came in second to Tara in the 1998 Olympics. Frank Carroll made a concerted effort to tell Michelle, "Yes, a lot of your fans will be telling you, 'Oh Michelle, you were robbed, you should have got the gold medal.' But don't believe it. You skated well. So did Tara. That's sports."

MM

Mathman · Apr 12, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
Slutskaya may feel wuzrobbed, but it is a highly debated wuzrobbed, not a given.

Not only that, but if we are bringing up the Short Program for review, then we can also resurrect the Long.

Many people (including four of the nine judges) thought Michelle should have been placed ahead of Irina in the free skate.

MM

Kwanford Wife · Apr 12, 2006

Mathman said:
That's an interesting point Ptichka.

Boy, I don't know, though. I can't think it is good for either athletes or "ordinary people" to go through life thinking the judges hate me, I never get a break, everybody is cheating for my opponent, they'll never let me win no matter what I do.

MM

MM, I agree for the most part...

At some point you have to own your mistakes, outcomes, etc and get on with it...

However, for me, the whole SLC thing comes down to Irina's (and probably Michelle too ~ she's just A LOT better at hiding it...) opinion that if she doesn't win then Michelle better win because they are the only two worthy whether that be medals, acclaim or the publisher's clearing house sweepstakes... Elite athletes are just that way. They don't like to loose and espcially not to upstarts who haven't "earned" it... and a lot are like Irina: "If I didn't win, then the fix is in!" Add the politics that is figure skating and you have "I should have won in '02"

I'm always surprised that skating fans are always so quick to be offended by Irina's opinion that she should've won, because she believes that to be truth. And I betcha she's never needed a sports shrink because she has a competitior's attitude. Competitors are happy when they win and cranky when they don't. This is true in any sport from football to curling. Its sports!

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 12, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
In the SLC SP Kwan had a faulty landing on a 3F and possibly a flatz. Cohen had a flutz and an issue with closing the circle on her step sequence that I didn't see, but was described in many posts. Slutskaya had a serious break -- requiring a deduction -- between her steps and 3F and major travelling on at least one spin. Nonetheless, Slutskaya had the highest tech scores from six of nine judges, ties with Kwan from two, and lower tech scores from one judge, Hrachovcova (Slovak Republic). While not all judges deducted for Kwan's faulty 3F, not all judges deducted for Slutskaya's flaws, either. She lost by the pre score, which Kwan had dominated in most of their head-to-head competition. Kwan skated a high-quality Rachmaninoff SP, and there was no reason for her pre scores to have suffered. She received 5.9's across the board.

I've always felt that although Kwan would get the highest Presentation scores, Irina's presentation scores would be so close that it made Kwans appear negligible. Irina, for me, was always boring and those scores seemed always to hold her up. There was nothing in Irina's performance that I could say wow to except the jumps and that was technical. Through no fault of her own she always had bad line in performing.

Slutskaya may feel wuzrobbed, but it is a highly debated wuzrobbed, not a given.

I just don't agree, for much of the reason above and in this case a very sloppy skate by Irina. JMO.

Joe

kyla2 · Apr 12, 2006

Curious

Actually, you are wrong there. Most of us are upset because we DID really like her. Just disappointed in someone I had thought much better of.

Irina Article In Russian

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