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Thread: ISU limits the use of Biellman Spin starting next season

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    ISU limits the use of Biellman Spin starting next season

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/pa...v-list,00.html

    Read Communication 1384.

    It basically says during SP Biellman Spin position can be used once to raise the level and twice during LP. It also states Biellman is a variation of upright spin, so going from camel to Biellman is a change of position.
    Last edited by rjulie510; 04-21-2006 at 01:32 AM.

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    While i agree its a good start - what about the Biellmann spiral? They don't appear to be limiting the use in spiral sequences. I think the once in the SP and twice in the LP should count in total for all spins and step sequences.

    Ant

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    Well it is a start. I am sick of that spin in any variation.

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    It does not limit Biellman spirals nor ISU did anything with catchfoot position, so I guess now skaters can overuse catchfoot positions. But hey, I'm still very happy we will see less Biellman.

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    yBielman's may be difficult for adult skaters but every junior and juvenal either has one or will have one shortly. And creititing them the way they have was way out of line. Level4??? with everyone doing them? duh.

    BTW - I haven't had time to check out the other notices in that link. Can anyone tell me if the meeting to discuss the Olys and Worlds has already taken place or will it be in May. I'm very interested to see how they decide the appeal from Stephane's coach on the 3A. Caller downgraded it, nine judges ignored the downgrading. hmmm.

    Joe

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    yBielman's may be difficult for adult skaters but every junior and juvenal either has one or will have one shortly. And creititing them the way they have was way out of line. Level4??? with everyone doing them? duh.

    BTW - I haven't had time to check out the other notices in that link. Can anyone tell me if the meeting to discuss the Olys and Worlds has already taken place or will it be in May. I'm very interested to see how they decide the appeal from Stephane's coach on the 3A. Caller downgraded it, nine judges ignored the downgrading. hmmm.

    Joe
    Has Lambiel's coach actually appealed the decision?? I didn't know that.

    Just a nit pick, but doing a Biellmann does not give you a level four in spins or spirals, it is just one of the level enhancers that add to the level - you need to do several other level enhancers in addition to the Biellmann to get level four...though i would argue that on the layback, pretty much the only way to get the fourth level enhancer is to hit a Biellmann position.

    Ant

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    Has Lambiel's coach actually appealed the decision?? I didn't know that.
    Another poster mentioned that in the Worlds folder. I'm not sure if the coach actually did appeal.

    Just a nit pick, but doing a Biellmann does not give you a level four in spins or spirals, it is just one of the level enhancers that add to the level - you need to do several other level enhancers in addition to the Biellmann to get level four...though i would argue that on the layback, pretty much the only way to get the fourth level enhancer is to hit a Biellmann position.Ant
    True. And Bielman's are a huge enhancer so far. Many fans, imo, particularly the very young fans are overwhelmed with acrobatic moves. They fail to see the beauty in figure skating classics. So be it. Bielman's are powerful and not at all classic and the ISU did the right thing in limiting them.

    Joe

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    Although I think the "catch foot" is some what over used in the spirals, I am glad that they are not limiting that at the moment mainly do to the GOP sys. If they were to limit that now we would all be dealing with the "dog at the fire hydrant" or what ever else they would come up with just to get points instead.

    As for the Biellmann, it is one of my fav moves - but only really when it is "spin" I have over used the "looks like a flower blooming" reason more times then Irina has slipped it into her program - but I am very glad they are limiting it. I would think that they should also have a minimum number of rotations on the spin for it to count.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanibu
    Although I think the "catch foot" is some what over used in the spirals, I am glad that they are not limiting that at the moment mainly do to the GOP sys. If they were to limit that now we would all be dealing with the "dog at the fire hydrant" or what ever else they would come up with just to get points instead.

    As for the Biellmann, it is one of my fav moves - but only really when it is "spin" I have over used the "looks like a flower blooming" reason more times then Irina has slipped it into her program - but I am very glad they are limiting it. I would think that they should also have a minimum number of rotations on the spin for it to count.
    Doesn't each spin have to have 3 positions at least to count? (When in combination spin, in solo spin I think it's 8 revolutions. Initial 1-3 revolutions used to get into the position doesn't count, I believe.)

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    The minimum number of revolutions required in the whole spin have not changed with the new system. (SP: 8 in position for spins without change of foot, 6 on each foot for those with change of foot; LP: 6 and 5, respectively)

    It's the number of revolutions in position that count. However, the spin has to have at least 3 revs to be called as a spin at all, otherwise it's just a transition.

    Additional rules and clarifications for the new system from last year's Communication 1319:

    The concluding upright position at the end of the spin (final wind-up) is not considered to be another position if does not exceed 3 revolutions and the revolutions executed in it are not to be counted in the required number of revolutions.
    For the ladies' required layback or sideways leaning spin in the SP:
    Any position is permitted, as long as the basic layback or sideways leaning position is maintained for eight (8) revolutions without rising to an upright position. The position of a “Biellmann Spin” can only be taken and considered as a feature to increase the Level after having successfully rotated these required 8 revolutions in the layback-position (backward or sideways).
    For combo spins in the SP:
    The spin combination must consist of only one change of foot and at least two (2) changes of position (sit, camel, upright or any variation thereof) with not less than six (6) revolutions on each foot. Any spin combination must include all three (3) basic positions or their variations. The change of foot may be executed in the form of a step over or a jump. The change of foot and the change of position may be made either at the same time or separately. During a change of positions a difficult variation of position can be executed. The minimum number of revolutions required in each position is two (2). In case this requirement is not fulfilled, the position is not counted. A Spin combination executed with less than 2 revolution in all executed positions is considered as a “Spin combination not according to the requirements”, receives no Level and therefore no value. A spin combination executed with only 1 position with not less than 2 revolution (as to requirements) and in all other positions less than 2 revolutions (not to the requirements) receives Level 1 and the Judges will also reduce the GOE.
    In the LP:
    The spins must have a required minimum number of revolutions: six (6) for the flying spin and the spin with only one position and ten (10) for the spin combination, the lack of which must be reflected by Judges in their marking, however a spin with less than three rotations is considered as a skating movement and not a spin. These minimum number of required revolutions must be counted from the entry of the spin until its exit. In the spin combination the change of foot is optional and the number of different positions is free. A spin with no change of position, in which another position is executed with more than 2 revolutions, does not fulfil the requirements of a spin with “no change of positions” and will be identified as a “Spin Combination”. However, the concluding upright position at the end of the spin (final wind-up) is not considered to be another position if does not exceed 3 revolutions and the revolutions executed in it are not to be counted in the required number of revolutions. A second change of foot in a spin with change of foot does not count as a feature for a higher level.
    During a change of positions a difficult variation of position can be executed.
    Same requirements as the SP for 2 revolutions for a position to count.

    For spins with a change of direction, "A minimum of 3 revolutions in each direction is required" to get credit for that feature for a higher level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanibu
    Although I think the "catch foot" is some what over used in the spirals, I am glad that they are not limiting that at the moment mainly do to the GOP sys. If they were to limit that now we would all be dealing with the "dog at the fire hydrant" or what ever else they would come up with just to get points instead.
    The "catch foot" was used extensively under 6.0, at least among European skaters, usually with a front spiral and a back spiral.

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    Thank goodness - the only two skaters who can actually do a great Biellman spin are Shawn Sawyer of Canada - men's and Sasha Cohen of the US - ladies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    The "catch foot" was used extensively under 6.0, at least among European skaters, usually with a front spiral and a back spiral.
    Is grabbing the ankle or blade the same? I didn't really mean to say during a spiral, just came out - in some of the cases I would rather see the "knee grab" (??) rather then the "foot area" in their hands every other move. Wasn't Mr. Button saying something along the same lines? Maybe it over sensitized me to the move and I can't get it out of my head now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanibu
    Is grabbing the ankle or blade the same? I didn't really mean to say during a spiral, just came out - in some of the cases I would rather see the "knee grab" (??) rather then the "foot area" in their hands every other move. Wasn't Mr. Button saying something along the same lines? Maybe it over sensitized me to the move and I can't get it out of my head now?
    I've seen it both ways, but most of them involved grabbing the blade, not the boot. By "catch-foot" I don't mean "I" spirals where the skater grabs the ankle and pulls the leg into a side split, but where the skater lifts the foot back and usually catches the blade, while the back is at least somewhat upright. Looking at it sideways, the skater looks like a crooked "Y." Sometimes the catch is done on the diagonal instead with the same hand and foot.

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    Just a question or thought, why are people sick of Bielmann? Why don't people say, I'm sick of camel or I'm sick of sit spin? Often, you will see one/both in various combinations, but they are there probably more than once in a program.

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