Artistic Pet Peeves

lotusland said:

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You have a point about the mouth thing, but, to be perfectly fair (and admittedly a bit persnickity ) about this, in the first photo on the list, that looks more like a really really really perky CLOSING POSITION as opposed to actually being in motion with his mouth open; looks like they needed a "perky dude" photo for the page! (He also looks like Jake Gyllenhaal in that picture, too) [And also a bit like Kermit the Frog...]

dancindiva03 said:

Have you ever watched Jeff skate? His mouth is ALWAYS open. David WIlson sucks, everything he does looks so similar.

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Some people just breathe through their mouths more easily than their noses when doing physical activity. Personally, I think it's more important that he breathes and doesn't keel over from lack of oxygen then spend his time altering his way of breathing and suffocate.

As for the david wilson part, I'm not even going to touch that cause it seems you've got some unfounded anger towards him. I mean, I'm not a fan of Plushenko's choreography, or most of Morozov's stuff, but I don't bash them. And I find that the only similarities between Wilson's choreography is that his style is to not give each skater the same program. I mean seriously, do Shawn Sawyer and Ben Ferreira's programs look the same as Jeff's? Did Sasha's long program look the same as Joannie's program? No!

So much for not touching the Wilson part

My biggest 'artistic pet peeve' is when people consider when skaters do an element, skate skate skate, do another element, pose and wave arms, then do another element to be 'artistic'. To me, artistry is when a skater's movements seem to make the music go - as though they are conducting the orchestra with their skating... that is the epitome of amazing presentation and artistry to me, and 'skate skate jump, skate spin, skate flail arms, skate jump' does not show that for me. But then again, that's just my opinion.

SusanBeth said:

Artistic pet peeves: Angsted-out emoting and "soul baring". If all your soul has to say is "My hernia is killing me!", I don't want to see it.

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Yes! Or as we say at my house, "Emotional...or constipated? You make the call."

Rave

Empty performances - just for points or just don't have any choreography.

White boots with Black..eesh! Just wear something nice, no animal or floral prints.

Off the music beat / progression.

Incessant use of a element.

ADVERTISING ON THE BOARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some of the uglier positions.

Other wise it's "divine!"

seanibu said:

ADVERTISING ON THE BOARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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These days, I have to agree with that. Strangely, when I first started following skating back in the late 70s, I used to think the barrier banners were kinda cool, especially at competitions in Europe, because they advertised European products that few of us over here had ever heard of, so there was a certain charm to it. (Plus, there was only about 2 or 3 of them). NOW, however, that US products have pretty much taken over the universe, you can see in Vienna the exact same tacky signage you can see in Pittsburgh. Plus, it's gotten more garish; they used to be pretty much black and white; now they are much more colorful and in this case that is not a good thing. I can't remember which Worlds it was --- I want to say Dortmund in 04, but I'm not sure, it was someplace in the last 3 years -- I was so distracted trying to figure out what in the world Smucker's Crustables were I was spacing out on half the skating.

Joesitz - Not sure what the difference would be between 'Dickisms' and Mr. Buttons' opinions, but here's a few examples of what I'm talking about, most of them current, can't remember ALL of them, too many.....

I think it was at the conclusion of the recent Worlds when he quite literally got into his own private pulpit and told the skating world to 'get rid of twizzles, because they are ugly and unseemly'.
Ban it because Dick hates it.

One of my 'favorite' habits of his is when he tells the audience what a particular skaters' style is like before the performance, even if this isn't actually visible in the actual upcoming performance......
Things like 'flirty' (= she looks at the audience...), ''graceful' (= no jumps....), 'lyrical' (= lots of slow spins....), and so on.
Or how about repeating every time a particular skater steps onto the ice that 'she used to have a weight problem'.....Yeah, Dick, maybe she did, and I bet she's real happy you keep reminding everyone of that......

Or when he critiques the way someone tied their bootlaces as 'unattractive'....??????
I'd say if you can skate like that and are alone on the ice performing, you can tie your laces any way you please......

How about this outburst when Tara Lipinski won something (I forgot what): "What have we wrought upon the world!?"
Beg pardon?
How pompous can you get?
That's a cute young girl who likes to jump.
So what?

Show me any tape of any competition anywhere he is commentating, and I can probably list you a couple of dozen times when his critique of their performance is basically just judgemental, and without any connection to reality at all. Contrast that with people like Peggy Fleming or Scott Hamilton who are usually on very solid ground when they're commenting on someone else's skating, while all Mr. Button does is opine.....

An expert commentator's job is to give his opinion as well as the play-by-play. Not everyone is going to agree, but that doesn't make an opinion wrong. Sometimes it works out better when the opinion is controversial. It inspires discussion and possibly change.

think it was at the conclusion of the recent Worlds when he quite literally got into his own private pulpit and told the skating world to 'get rid of twizzles, because they are ugly and unseemly'.
Ban it because Dick hates it.

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I took that as an example of overstatement to make a point. Twizzles are getting so overemphasised that something should be done to limit the use. Personally, I wouldn't have cried if they had banned Beillmann's, but I am glad enough noise was made to cause them to be limited. Dick definitely helped make some noise about it.

One of my 'favorite' habits of his is when he tells the audience what a particular skaters' style is like before the performance, even if this isn't actually visible in the actual upcoming performance......
Things like 'flirty' (= she looks at the audience...), ''graceful' (= no jumps....), 'lyrical' (= lots of slow spins....), and so on.

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I don't really understand your point. Are you saying that a person without good jumps can't be graceful or a person with slow spins can't be lyrical? Perhaps you mean that he shouldn't point out the good qualities of a flawed skater?

Or how about repeating every time a particular skater steps onto the ice that 'she used to have a weight problem'.....Yeah, Dick, maybe she did, and I bet she's real happy you keep reminding everyone of that......

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There's nothing shameful about having had a weight problem. As someone who managed to get weight problem under control, you can bet that I wanted it noticed.

How about this outburst when Tara Lipinski won something (I forgot what): "What have we wrought upon the world!?"
Beg pardon?
How pompous can you get?
That's a cute young girl who likes to jump.
So what?

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Those, IMO, are "Dickisms". He is so unique in the way he expresses himself sometimes. That's his style and I like it. It makes you think, even if you don't quite "get it." His enthusiasm always comes through and can be infectious.

Show me any tape of any competition anywhere he is commentating, and I can probably list you a couple of dozen times when his critique of their performance is basically just judgemental, and without any connection to reality at all. Contrast that with people like Peggy Fleming or Scott Hamilton who are usually on very solid ground when they're commenting on someone else's skating, while all Mr. Button does is opine.....

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Critiques are judgements. You can't have a critique that doesn't include judgements. Judgements are often based on knowledge, experience, and opinion. Therefore, they can vary from expert to expert. Some of Button's judgements I agree with and some I don't. I don't think claiming his are disconnected to reality is fair at all. He is drawing upon years of experience that perhaps you don't understand.

As for Peggy and Scotty, I do respect them. I find them less than helpful at times, but that doesn't take away from what they have given to the sport. Since both of them have expressed great respect and appreciation for Dick Button's work, I just have to agree with them.

Macro: anything that is off or inappropriate to the music: timing, choreography, mannerisms, uber-drama, mugging, pseudo-sexiness, after a few opening smoldering looks and some "character" arms skating as if the music could be interchanged with any style, repeatedly bad attempts to impersonate an unsuitable style.

Micro: any attempt to use the toe picks as if they are pointe shoes.

hockeyfan228 said:

Micro: any attempt to use the toe picks as if they are pointe shoes.

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Exception -- Michelle's 1999 SP (black dress) where she got up on her toe pcks and did some high kicks like a chorus line!

Mathman said:

Exception -- Michelle's 1999 SP (black dress) where she got up on her toe pcks and did some high kicks like a chorus line!

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But that's using skates as tap shoes -- that's different!

Button's commentary style reminds me a lot of literary criticism (or arts criticism in general) from the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Develop extensive erudite knowledge of a tradition and its values and conventions, develop your personal taste by internalizing those values, and then judge each new work you encounter as to how "good" it is according to those values, often relying on your expert personal taste as the criterion. I bet Button read a lot of that kind of criticism back when he was a Harvard undergrad in the 1940s and not much of more recent critical theory in the decades since when he was no longer a student. It's an old-fashioned and elitist approach, but it was still pretty much the norm in non-skating arts criticism in the 1960s when he started his commentary career.

And I do think that many of the other American (and sometimes non-American) commentators, including Fleming and Hamilton, and also many fans, have learned the commentary-as-personal-opinion approach from listening to him all those years, in most cases without the corresponding familiarity with the arts outside the skating world that Button brings to the table.

hockeyfan228 said:

But that's using skates as tap shoes -- that's different!

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Tap shoes? In the Fate of Carmen?

GKelly, outstanding post on Dick Button's commentary.

As far as the whole commentator thing goes, I wish there was a way to tune them out during the performances (a separate audio channel or simulcast with radio, something). Not that I disagree or agree with the comments, they can be helpful, but they distract from the whole presentation aspect. I enjoy most commentary after the performance during the review, and can see how people would like to have it - and it makes it like any other sport. But skating to me is so much about the ambiance that it is like having someone talk thru a movie.

I really like Dick's comments most of the time whether he is critical, complementary or just funny without knowing it - "I wonder if lightning will strike the same family twice" classic And I really agree with the importance he places in "presentation / music."

Yet again I will say my Dream would be to have a real time technical scoreboard with the element that is about to be preformed.....then the score, running total and no commentary during the routines (making it more like you are there). And as the "art" is being added give the comments while watching the review.

There are many women who do not have the ideal body type for figure skating. However, when we think ideal- we think ballerina, slender flexible. While these things obviouosly cannot hinder ones skating, they are not the end-all be-alls of a skater career. It's like everything else in life, for there to be a change one must opt to try to make a change. Therefore why not change the individual thought process of idealism and go with what works for the individual, the results may very well surpass the ideal.
By this I mean make what others view as your defaults/setback into what seperates you from the pack.
I've seen some of the most moving preformances by talented skaters, and I've seen some of the most moving preformances by kids that really want it and their heart and devotion can be seen in their every move. This is not to knock god-given talents, but lets also not knock kids who don't have but work towards it.
So, my pet peeve would be coaches who steer their kids into the packs, making their indivuality non-exsistent. Myself and so many other would agree sometimes coloring outside the lines can create a masterpiece in and of itself - if given time and support.
In my opinion, with experience- I think kids given their freedom of expression (while maintaining a work ethic and training schedule) thrive, in the skating, but also as thought provokes individuals in society.
Whoa, did I stray or what....

bobby said:

There ____________society.
Whoa, did I stray or what....

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Maybe a touch, but I am very pleased to hear that opinion anytime!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whether it is society or the coaches, conforming to anything that doesn't hurt points, un-sportsman like conduct or cause pain to others is totally unnecessary. If the points really take that into consideration (not the ablity to perform or health risks), that is another reason to revamp the sys.

- good writing skills!

Perry said:

COP is meant to reward difficulty, and falling on a clean quad is significantly harder than landing a clean triple.

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What exactly is "clean" about a quad that ends in a fall :scratch:

Ant

Ladskater said:

The Plushenkos of skating don't get as high marks in artistic expression. Their strength is the big jumps.

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But sadly Pluschneko does get the highest artistic expression marks and that is where the injustice lies.

Ant

Artistic Pet Peeve? Every so-called choreographer who tries to force a square peg into a round hole. IMO, working against a skater's natural inclination only serves to highlight their inability to sell the concept or move. I much prefer to watch the work of someone in the vein of David Wilson or Sandra Bezic (now retired) who really tries to highlight a skater's individual strengths while at the same time minimizing their weaknesses.
Pet Peeve Artistic Move/Embellishment? Yuck, yuck, yuck, the arm in the sweeping/wrapping round the head move. Please that particular movement is only appropriate for certain types of music, it isn't a one-move-fits-all-genres item.

Oh, so many annoyances to choose from in the current amateur field! One thing that made me nuts in Torino and at the 2006 Worlds was the spastic flailing of the ice dancers. Was any move held for more than a split-second? Tack on the horrible, tasteless costumes and the wide-eyed, face-splitting smiles of the women and you've got a recipe for GACK. Never, never, never have I missed Torvill and Dean more (or been so thankful that they're back to show the world again how it should be done!).