Mao or Stephane?

Mathman · May 15, 2006

So, who is the stronger jumper, 15-year-old ladies' junior world silver medalist Mao Asada, or two-time senior men's champ Stephane Lambiel?

Asada has a reliable triple Axel, which Lambiel lacks. But Lambiel is often successful with his quad toe.

In their latest head-to-head competition (the Japan Open) this is how it turned out.

In her seven jumping passes combined, Mao had a base value of 45.4, plus an additional +7.00 GOE. This gave her a total of 52.40 points on jump elements.

Stephane, in eight jumping passes (two were wasted on double Axels because he didn't have a triple), had a base value of 47.6, with a combined negative 1.20 GOE, for a grand total of 46.40. (He did land a quad toe, but after they took off -2.80 GOE, he received only 6.2 points for it.)

Mao 52.4, Stephane 46.4

So Mao won that one by a whopping 6 points -- the equivalent of a triple Lutz (of which Mao did two, Stephane, one.)

Well, not to worry, the graceful if tech-challenged Lambiel beat her on the artistic side -- especially so after receiving the "men's bonus" of multiplying the component scores by 2.0 if you are a man and only by 1.6 if you are a woman, just to keep it fair.

What's wrong with this picture?

MM

Spun Silver · May 15, 2006

That's really funny because after watching Lambiel's FP and what I could find of Mao's, she seemed totally on and at least as good in component parts as Kimmie at Worlds, whereas Lambiel seemed to be having an off night both artistically and technically... IMO anyway.

That "men's bonus" is really silly. Why can't judges just score men in a way that reflects their inferior artistic capacities?

debdelilah · May 15, 2006

Mao is wonderful, but I think you're a tad too disparaging of Stephane Lambiel.
He has been nursing a knee injury, and was off the ice all of April. He has consistant quad-triples and can do two quads in one program--his score here at the Japan Open was almost 20 points lower than his score at Worlds.
He's hardly "no tech", but I think you know that.

Mao is remarkable. Her consistant triple axels are an extreme anomaly for women skaters, especially at the moment, when she seems to be the only woman trying them. Her triple jump combinations--wow! But the 1.6 factor for PCS scores makes sense, because I guess it's designed not to overwhelm the TES, considering that many elite women skaters have an average TES much lower than Mao's. As in, 30 points lower.

So let's not pick on injured Stephane, who can't do the impossible.

But congratulations to Mao, who apparantly can!

(Incidentally, all the other male skaters scored lower than Stephane.)

Vash01 · May 16, 2006

Mathman said:
Mao 52.4, Stephane 46.4

So Mao won that one by a whopping 6 points -- the equivalent of a triple Lutz (of which Mao did two, Stephane, one.)

Well, not to worry, the graceful if tech-challenged Lambiel beat her on the artistic side -- especially so after receiving the "men's bonus" of multiplying the component scores by 2.0 if you are a man and only by 1.6 if you are a woman, just to keep it fair.

What's wrong with this picture?

MM

The numbers speak for themselves when it comes to jumps.

The component marks are yet another example of women being discriminated against. :laugh:

Vash

Joesitz (RIP) · May 16, 2006

Some people just have it in for Stephane. Trying to make an issue out of two separate competitions by separate judges, in a home town of one skater of the opposite sex is really pushing it to put one skater off the list of top male skaters.
Note we are not comparing Takahashie with Mao. hmmm.

Where does that put Sandhu, Buttle, Lysacek, Weir as well as Takahashie?? What is the real issue here?

Joe

Mathman · May 16, 2006

Joesitz said:
What is the real issue here?

The issue is...

Give me some men
Who are stout-hearted men

and who don't get their butts whipped by a 15-year-old girl.

Is this a sport or a beauty contest?

Jump results:

Mao Asada: 52.4
Daisuke Takahashi: 50.1
Jeff Buttle: 47.1
Stephane Lambiel: 46.4
Emanuel Sandhu: 41.7
Takeshi Honda: 38.6
Alexei Yagudin: 22.3

As for the issue of different judging panels, these are the statistics just for jumps. A triple flip is a triple flip, worth 5.5 points in every competition, men or women.

Now with respect to the beauty contest (where judges' preferences might play more of a role), Lambiel, Takahashi, Buttle, Sandhu and Yagudin all got higher PCSs than Mao.

Your mama's rich, and your daddy's good lookin'.

I know it's just a cheesefest, but come on guys -- bring it!

MM

debdelilah · May 16, 2006

Well,

give me some girls
who are stout-hearted girls
and some men who don't whine when they win!

Really, Mao doing well doesn't take anything away from the guys. She's Mao, and she does well. Like Plushenko.

antmanb · May 16, 2006

Mathman said:
The issue is...

Give me some men
Who are stout-hearted men

and who don't get their butts whipped by a 15-year-old girl.

Is this a sport or a beauty contest?

Jump results:

Mao Asada: 52.4
Daisuke Takahashi: 50.1
Jeff Buttle: 47.1
Stephane Lambiel: 46.4
Emanuel Sandhu: 41.7
Takeshi Honda: 38.6
Alexei Yagudin: 22.3

As for the issue of different judging panels, these are the statistics just for jumps. A triple flip is a triple flip, worth 5.5 points in every competition, men or women.

Now with respect to the beauty contest (where judges' preferences might play more of a role), Lambiel, Takahashi, Buttle, Sandhu and Yagudin all got higher PCSs than Mao.

Your mama's rich, and your daddy's good lookin'.

I know it's just a cheesefest, but come on guys -- bring it!

MM

MM - i just tried to do it myself but i can't look at the results (something about the japaense script reader or seomthing...at any rate i'm at work so i can't download anything to this computer) can you fill in the rest of the jump details for the ladies, to see how the stack up, jump wise in total? Just curious to see if any other girls have the guys beat on jumps alone.

Ant

Niza · May 16, 2006

Joesitz said:
Where does that put Sandhu, Buttle, Lysacek, Weir as well as Takahashie?? What is the real issue here?

Joe

I think the real issue that these guys did not win the worlds twice and have no olimpic sillver. lol.
Go Mao!

debdelilah · May 16, 2006

Niza said:
I think the real issue that these guys did not win the worlds twice and have no olimpic sillver. lol.
Go Mao!

Well, Stephane would not have won Worlds or earned Olympic silver if he'd skated like he did in the Japan Open. But he's been trying to get himself in shape for next season by resting the knee injury in his landing leg. If he'd trained hard right through April, with cortisone shots to numb the pain, who knows what he could have done?
But I'm glad he didn't do that.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 16, 2006

Turning this comparison into a parody is not the way to explain what the real issue is here. I contend that some people just don't want Lambiel as the next big thing in Men's figure skating. Not a problem, but why resort to something as silly as this? Hidden anger at winning gold at 2 World Championships?

Did Mao score more than Takehashi??? yet not a word of comparison. There has to be a reason for that.

Why not put the topic as Mao Scores Highest at the Japan Open (including the boys)? It would keep Women's Power in tact.

Joe

Mathman · May 16, 2006

debdelilah said:
Well,

give me some girls
who are stout-hearted girls
and some men who don't whine when they win!

:chorus: :chorus: :chorus:

In today's news it says golfer Michelle Wie just won her local qualifying tournament for the (men's) U.S. Open. Moving on to sectionals next month.

Antman said:
...can you fill in the rest of the jump details for the ladies, to see how the stack up, jump wise in total? Just curious to see if any other girls have the guys beat on jumps alone.

Rochette scored 45.3 on jump elements, which put her ahead of Sandhu, Honda and Yagudin.

Remember, this is with only 7 jumping passes in 4 minutes, compared to 8 jumping passes in 4.5 minutes for the guys.

Asada: 52.4
Rochette: 45.3
Ando: 35.3
Meier: 32.0
Korpi: 21.7
Czisny: 16.4

Antman said:
MM - i just tried to do it myself but i can't look at the results (something about the japanese script reader or something...

Minam

, an administrator on FSU, kindly posted the complete scoring protocols on this thread:

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38986&page=7&pp=15

Mathman · May 16, 2006

Joesitz said:
Turning this comparison into a parody is not the way to explain what the real issue is here. I contend that some people just don't want Lambiel as the next big thing in Men's figure skating.

Oh, baloney, Joe. Nobody contributing to this thread can prevent Stephane from jumping up a storm.

I singled out Lambiel in the title because he won the event, so I was comparing the ladies winner with the men's winner.

If it makes you happy, the second place man, Takahashi, outjumped Joannie Rochette, 50.1 to 45.3.

And Alexei beat Alissa.

MM

Joesitz (RIP) · May 16, 2006

Well, you've had problems with Lambiel before. This looked like a put down at a cheesefest. Sorry. I'll go with the parody.

Joe

antmanb · May 16, 2006

Thanks MM for the link and the jump results.

In order of jumping talent then:

Mao Asada: 52.4
Daisuke Takahashi: 50.1
Jeff Buttle: 47.1
Rochette: 45.3
Stephane Lambiel: 46.4
Emanuel Sandhu: 41.7
Takeshi Honda: 38.6
Ando: 35.3
Meier: 32.0
Alexei Yagudin: 22.3
Korpi: 21.7
Czisny: 16.4

So i guess the ladies didn't do so badly at all - especially given they are a jumping pass down on the men which shows that both Asada and Rochette did pretty well jumpwise, and Ando didn't do too badly either.

Ant

Mathman · May 16, 2006

No, I have never put down Lambiel. What possible reason would I have for doing such a thing?

Skye · May 16, 2006

Why would Lambiel have to work off on injured knees for an off-season Pro-Am cheesefest?
On the other hand, Mao surely needed to regain some self-esteem from the shocker at Junior Worlds.
Asides from her, I don't think anybody was considering this event as a serious competition, which is why I found Rochette's skate a pleasant surprise.

hockeyfan228 · May 16, 2006

When Ladies' jumps are marked, they are marked against the way senior women are expected to do jumps: with less height and power. I've seen Lambiel and Asada live, and there is no comparison between the Lambiel's height, power, and basic technique -- Lutz anyone? -- compared to Asada's. Of all the women, Rochette and Ando are the closest in quality of the jumps they lands well, because they have attack, smoothness in the entry, and flowout in addition to strength.

Asada has beautiful rhythm and lightness. I saw junior Men at US Nationals and Canadians with similar quality, rated similarly to Ladies. Asada would have creamed the field in juniors, because she has the same jump quality as junior men. But she would look anemic competing against Lambiel, and on the whole, her jump technique isn't as good (although she has time).

Mathman · May 16, 2006

inloveagain said:
Why would Lambiel have to work off on injured knees for an off-season Pro-Am cheesefest?
On the other hand, Mao surely needed to regain some self-esteem from the shocker at Junior Worlds.
Asides from her, I don't think anybody was considering this event as a serious competition, which is why I found Rochette's skate a pleasant surprise.

Hi, Inloveagain. Thanks for joining us, and welcome to Golden Skate!

To respond to your post, I would say, first, I don't know how fragile Mao's self-esteem is. Mao did not skate well at junior worlds (in the free skate she singled her triple Axel attempt and also singled her Lutz), but Yu-Na Kim is no slouch herself.

IMHO the surprise of junior worlds was not that Kim came in ahead of Asada, but rather that Christine Zukowski put up such a fine showing to win the bronze. :rock:

BTW, Kim's total on jump elements in that event was 48.4. If she had duplicated that effort in the Japan cheesefest she would have come in between Takahashi's 50.1 and Lambiel's 46.4.

About taking cheesefests seriously, I guess I am the only person in skateland who thinks this way. But to me, when you ask people to pay their hard-earned money to come out to a skating show, you owe them your best effort every time you take the ice.

And I think in this case the athletes delivered. Although I have been kidding around on this thread about Stephane being upstaged by a girl, still he whipped off quad toe, 3flip/3toe combo, 3Lz, 3Lo, 3Sal, Lz+3toe combo, and two double Axels, in addition to 6 exciting spin and step sequences, all level three. All this in defiance of sore knees and abbreviated preparation time.

To me, that's serious competive skating. :agree:

MM

Mathman · May 16, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
When Ladies' jumps are marked, they are marked against the way senior women are expected to do jumps: with less height and power....

In addition to that, the serious point that I was trying to make in this thread is as follows.

The CoP is constructed on the expectation that, on the tech side, men will be able to score about 25% higher than women.

Combining this with the expectation that both men and ladies will score about twice as high in the LP as in the SP, this is what justifies the weightings of the PCSs: 0.8 and 1.6 for ladies versus 1.0 and and 2.0 -- 25% higher -- for the men.

Just counting jumps, a championship performance by a man might feature a quad toe/triple toe combination (13.0 points) and triple Axel/triple toe (11.5 points), while the highest elements for a lady's championship program might be, say, triple Lutz/triple loop (11.0 points) and triple flip/double loop/double toe (8.5).

So far the lady has 19.5 and the man has 24.5 -- about 25% higher, as anticipated.

Just in case the lady starts to catch up, the man gets an extra jumping pass (eight instead of seven).

For instance, at 2006 Worlds, counting just the SP and the LP, Kimmie Meissner scored 189.87 points and Stephane Lambiel 233.99 -- about 25% higher. All's well in CoP-land.

So...it is surprising to see, even in a not-very-serious team competiton like the Japan Open, a lady's performance that is so strong as to make up that built-in 25%, and then some.

MM

Mao or Stephane?

Mathman

Spun Silver

debdelilah

Vash01

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

debdelilah

antmanb

Niza

debdelilah

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

Mathman

Skye

hockeyfan228

Mathman

Mathman

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