USA Athlete envelopes announced

Mathman · May 18, 2006

soogar said:
Well there is extra credit in that a 3-3 permits a skater to add more triples to the program and really beef up the technical mark. I think that if Kimmie nailed everything in her program, those 2 3-3s would beat out Mao's 3 axel and the questionable technique Mao has on some of her jumps.

Just to put some numbers to it, here is a comparison of Mao's GP Finals program versus Kimmie at Worlds. Here are the jump elements, with their base point values (including second half bonus, excluding GOE):

Mao

3A -- 7.5
3F -- 5.5
3Lz -- 6.0
2A -- 3.3
3Lo+2Lo+2Lo -- 8.8
3F+2lo -- 7.7
3Lz+2Lo -- 8.3

Total -- 47.1

Kimmie

3F+3T -- 9.5
2A -- 3.3
3Lz+3T -- 10.0
3Lo --5.5
3Lz -- 6.6
3S -- 5.0
2A+2T+2Lo -- 6.7

Total -- 46.6

SeaniBu · May 18, 2006

It was good to see that Hinzman & Parchem are still in it, from what I was reading in a post a while back - http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13101 #8 - and that they were in the "A" team! WHO HOO.
I know it is superficial, but they are such a nice looking "couple."

Joesitz (RIP) · May 19, 2006

Re: MM's Point Results. That's a .5 difference between. I know, I know, I know what you all are going to say but for me that's a tie.

anyone know who the judges in these separate events were? GoEs can be whimsical.

Joe

antmanb · May 19, 2006

Joesitz said:
Re: MM's Point Results. That's a .5 difference between. I know, I know, I know what you all are going to say but for me that's a tie.

anyone know who the judges in these separate events were? GoEs can be whimsical.

Joe

I don't know that the identity (or knowledge of their natioanlity) would make much impact because MM's calculation of the jump score did not include GOEs.

It be interested in seeing what the outcome is including GOEs for the jumps because i seem to recall Kimmie having a lot of +GOEs on her jumps at worlds.

Ant

Mathman · May 19, 2006

Joesitz said:
Re: MM's Point Results. That's a .5 difference between. I know, I know, I know what you all are going to say but for me that's a tie.

Anyone know who the judges in these separate events were? GoEs can be whimsical.

Joe

Speaking of ties, points can be tricky (that's why I love 'em, LOL).

Sprinter Justin Gatlin just broke the world record in the 100 meters with a time of 9.766.

But no! The next day it was ruled that times can be measured only to the nearest hundredth of a second, so, after rounding, his time was 9.77.

This ties him for the record (also held by Asafa Powell of Jmaca).

Here is the list of judges for the Grand Prix Final:

http://www.isufs.org/results/gpf0506/SEG004OF.HTM

And here is the panel at Worlds:

http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2006/SEG008OF.HTM

The nationalities of the judges are not given in the second list (we can find them out from the ISU site if anyone is curious). But both lists seem to have an appropriate geographical spread.

MM

PS. The real chance for Kimmie to cream Mao is in her second element. She did a double Axel. But that space is being held for a triple Axel, if she can get it back with enough consistency to include it.

If Kimmie could a triple Axel AND two triple-triples, wouldn't that be something?

antmanb · May 19, 2006

Mathman said:
PS. The real chance for Kimmie to cream Mao is in her second element. She did a double Axel. But that space is being held for a triple Axel, if she can get it back with enough consistency to include it.

If Kimmie could a triple Axel AND two triple-triples, wouldn't that be something?

Similarly Mao's second axel is a place holder for a second triple axel though so maybe this upcoming season will be the battle of the triple axels in the ladies.

Wouldn't it be something if these two skaters are the catalyst that makes a the triple axel the must have element for senior ladies?

Ant

Joesitz (RIP) · May 19, 2006

MM - Ant - You know as we all do that in one of those GPs, they will meet and more than likely in the Final. This season will be the hottest ever, imo. Can Kimmie repeat the Ladies World Championship for the US? Will Mao show the world that Japan is now the capital Ladies championships? Will Joannie just win and forget anything else?

Baited breath fans are waiting.:yes:

Joe

Mathman · May 19, 2006

antmanb said:
It be interested in seeing what the outcome is including GOEs for the jumps because i seem to recall Kimmie having a lot of +GOEs on her jumps at worlds.

Ant

Right you are. Kimmie got a total of 4.15 GOE on her jump elements at Worlds. Mao's GOE on jumps was only 2.80.

In contrast, in the Japan Open cheesefest (with, one supposes, a less critical panel of judges), Mao got a whopping 7 points in GOE on jumps. (This supports Joe's point about the difficulties of comparing CoP scores of separate events.)

Kimmie

3F+3T -- 9.5+0.86 = 10.36 (Base value + GOE = total)
2A -- 3.3+0.86 = 4.16
3Lz+3T -- 10.0+0.43 = 10.43
3Lo -- 5.5x+1.29 = 5.79 (x = second half 10% bonus)
3Lz -- 6.6x+0.86 = 7.46
3S -- 5.0x+0.71 = 5.71
2A+2T+2Lo -- 6.7x+0.14 = 50.75

Total -- 46.6+4.15 = 50.75

Mao

3A -- 7.5+0.40 = 7.90
3F -- 5.5+0.80 = 6.30
3Lz -- 6.0 -0.40 = 5.60
2A -- 3.3+1.00 = 4.30
3Lo+2Lo+2Lo -- 8.8x+0.80 = 9.60
3F+2Lo -- 7.7x+0.20 = 7.90
3Lz+2Lo -- 8.3x+0.00 = 8.30

Total -- 47.1+2.80 = 49.90

MM

PS. In case anyone is wondering why all of Mao's GOEs end in 0, like .40, .80, etc., while Kimmies end in numbers like .86 and .43, it is because after the random draw and the trimming of the mean, there were five judges' marks averaged at the GP Final, and 7 for Worlds (also for the Olympics).

So Mao's scores are fifths (.2, .4, etc.) and Kimmies's are 7ths (.86 = 6/7, .43 = 3/7, etc.

I know everyone was wondering about that, right? :laugh:

MKFSfan · May 19, 2006

Joesitz said:
Re: MM's Point Results. That's a .5 difference between. I know, I know, I know what you all are going to say but for me that's a tie.

Joe

And not only that, Mao did 6 triples to Kimmie's 7, and there is only a 0.5 tech difference.

But, my point soogar, is a skater CAN do 7 triples w/o a 3/3. Using Mao's jump layout, a skater could do a 2nd 3axle in place of the 2axle or she could add a toe or salchow there. Granted, that's say a skater has to have a 3axle to make it possible. I'm not so sure I agree that it's fair that a 3/3 is = to 2 solo triples. But that's another discussion alltogether!

antmanb · May 19, 2006

Joesitz said:
MM - Ant - You know as we all do that in one of those GPs, they will meet and more than likely in the Final. This season will be the hottest ever, imo. Can Kimmie repeat the Ladies World Championship for the US? Will Mao show the world that Japan is now the capital Ladies championships? Will Joannie just win and forget anything else?

Baited breath fans are waiting.:yes:

Joe

Indeed it will be. It will be intersting to see if Kimmie and Mao face each other in one of the GPs before the final. Presumably since Mao wasn't elligible for senior worlds she is an unseeded skater for GP purposes?

Ant

antmanb · May 19, 2006

Mathman said:
Right you are. Kimmie got a total of 4.15 GOE on her jump elements at Worlds. Mao's GOE on jumps was only 2.80.

In contrast, in the Japan Open cheesefest (with, one supposes, a less critical panel of judges), Mao got a whopping 7 points in GOE on jumps. (This supports Joe's point about the difficulties of comparing CoP scores of separate events.)

Kimmie

3F+3T -- 9.5+0.86 = 10.36 (Base value + GOE = total)
2A -- 3.3+0.86 = 4.16
3Lz+3T -- 10.0+0.43 = 10.43
3Lo -- 5.5x+1.29 = 5.79 (x = second half 10% bonus)
3Lz -- 6.6x+0.86 = 7.46
3S -- 5.0x+0.71 = 5.71
2A+2T+2Lo -- 6.7x+0.14 = 50.75

Total -- 46.6+4.15 = 50.75

Mao

3A -- 7.5+0.40 = 7.90
3F -- 5.5+0.80 = 6.30
3Lz -- 6.0 -0.40 = 5.60
2A -- 3.3+1.00 = 4.30
3Lo+2Lo+2Lo -- 8.8x+0.80 = 9.60
3F+2Lo -- 7.7x+0.20 = 7.90
3Lz+2Lo -- 8.3x+0.00 = 8.30

Total -- 47.1+2.80 = 49.90

MM

PS. In case anyone is wondering why all of Mao's GOEs end in 0, like .40, .80, etc., while Kimmies end in numbers like .86 and .43, it is because after the random draw and the trimming of the mean, there were five judges' marks averaged at the GP Final, and 7 for Worlds (also for the Olympics).

So Mao's scores are fifths (.2, .4, etc.) and Kimmies's are 7ths (.86 = 6/7, .43 = 3/7, etc.

I know everyone was wondering about that, right?

Well it does a tleast show that regardless of what your planned jump schedule might be - you still ahve to land them and land them well.

Maybe kimmie doesn't need to bust a gut to get that triple axel then? Especially if her PCS come along over the summer?

Ant

Mathman · May 19, 2006

antmanb said:
Maybe kimmie doesn't need to bust a gut to get that triple axel then? Especially if her PCS come along over the summer?

IIRC this was her conscious plan for the past season -- to put the triple Axel on hold and work on the other aspects of her skating.

MKFSfan · May 19, 2006

antmanb said:
Indeed it will be. It will be intersting to see if Kimmie and Mao face each other in one of the GPs before the final. Presumably since Mao wasn't elligible for senior worlds she is an unseeded skater for GP purposes?

Ant

What do you mean? I'm sure Mao will still get 2 GP assignments considering she's the GPF winner and silver Jr. Worlds medalist. She was assigned to Cup Of China and TEB last year. I hope they will meet up as it's more exciting to see "rivals" compete! I wonder if the US would invite Kimmie AND Mao, or Japan having Mao AND Kimmie, or if they'd like to hype their own skaters as the winner.

Mathman · May 19, 2006

Still, I think Antman is correct in how the "seedings" are determined.

Here are the rules (this is for last season, but as far as I know they will be the same next year).

"The skaters are seeded and invited to the Grand Prix of Figure Skating according to the results of the most recent World Championships. Skaters/couples who have placed 1 to 10 in each of the four categories are considered to be seeded and are assigned by draw to skate in two events. This season, only seeded pair skaters may compete in a third event, if a spot is available. This third event will not count for points. Prize money will, however, be awarded according to placements.

"Skaters/couples who have placed 11 and 12 at the most recent World Championships will be selected for two ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating events. Athletes who placed 13 to 24 are selected for a minimum of one Grand Prix of Figure Skating event. Skaters in the top 36 of the current ISU World standings are invited to a minimum of one event. The hosting ISU member may select additional competitors."

Since Mao did not compete at senior worlds, I assume she is not "seeded" and will not participate in the draw.

She is, however, ranked #4 in the world in the ISU rankings, so she should be invited to "a minimum of one event." So she will probably be assigned to two, especially if Arakawa does not participate. The Japanese Federation will probably claim her for NHK (as the "hosting ISU member" federation) if the ISU does not assign her there.

MM

Sylvia · May 19, 2006

I've heard that the seeding for the 2006-07 Senior Grand Prix will be done by ISU world rankings and not by the placements at the 2006 World Championships -- we'll know for sure when the Grand Prix Technical Announcement is published by the ISU. The draw for the GP will take place in late June (probably during the ISU Congress meeting in Budapest). See also:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-175354-192572-103705-0-file,00.pdf

Mathman · May 19, 2006

MKFSfan said:
I wonder if the US would invite Kimmie AND Mao, or Japan having Mao AND Kimmie, or if they'd like to hype their own skaters as the winner.

As I read the rules, it looks like neither Kimmie nor USFS has a choice about whether Kimmie gets assigned to Skate America. Kimmie must participate in the "draw" for assignments.

Is this truly a random draw, or is the ISU allowed to manipulate it to make sure that Kimmie gets assigned to Skate America?

What if, just by the luck of the draw, Kimmie gets assigned to Trophee Eric Bompard and the Cup of Russia? She cannot be assigned to a third event, even at the sponsoring federation's request. Assuming that neither Michelle nor Sasha participate at all, we might have a situation again like last year -- no American headliner at Skate America.

We got lucky last year in that Alissa Czisny rose to the challenge and battled Elena Sokolova down to the wire for the gold medal -- and also Bebe and Emily gave respectable accountings of themselves -- to give the American audience something to cheer about after all. But no Michelle and no Sasha probably hurt ticket sales.

MM

Mathman · May 19, 2006

Sylvia said:
I've heard that the seeding for the 2006-07 Senior Grand Prix will be done by ISU world rankings and not by the placements at the 2006 World Championships -- we'll know for sure when the Grand Prix Technical Announcement is published by the ISU. The draw for the GP will take place in late June (probably during the ISU Congress meeting in Budapest). See also:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-175354-192572-103705-0-file,00.pdf

Thanks, Sylvia. Very interesting. According to that document they will take into account both "world standings" and "personal bests."

Michelle is #52 in world standings, but #8 in personal best for the short program and #12 in personal best for the LP.

Irina is #1 in world standings, but would be unseeded if they went by results at Worlds.

I wouldn't be surprised if they came up with a system that allowed them (the ISU) to assign people however they wanted to, while at the same time giving themselves more control over the skaters who skipped worlds after the Olympics.

Mm

Skye · May 19, 2006

Mathman said:
As I read the rules, it looks like neither Kimmie nor USFS has a choice about whether Kimmie gets assigned to Skate America. Kimmie must participate in the "draw" for assignments.

Is this truly a random draw, or is the ISU allowed to manipulate it to make sure that Kimmie gets assigned to Skate America?

AFAIK, the host country's selections precede all drawing processes.
That means, USFS can choose a maximum of three (in this case, including Kimmie) before the draw for seeded skaters takes place.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 19, 2006

Just for the record, my use of the old adage 'Hope (instead of love) is eternal was a reference to MK and how everying may work out for her to compete. It seems like her fans just wont give in.

Speaking of MK and the discussion above, how can she fit in this mix of GPs. With the changes in the seedings, I wonder if the 'extra' skater by the host country is still in effect.

If a third skater to be assigned to a GP by a host country still exists, why would MK even want to do it with a strong possibility of two skaters from her own team to win over her? If hope is eternal and she gets everything back (3 loop?) I think her best bet would be to find a way to get to the Nationals.

Back to Kimmie and Mao. I hope they both show up in Hartford. Yikes!:yes:

Joe

Mathman · May 19, 2006

inloveagain said:
AFAIK, the host country's selections precede all drawing processes. That means, USFS can choose a maximum of three (in this case, including Kimmie) before the draw for seeded skaters takes place.

Thanks for the info, Inloveagain. That makes more sense.

USA Athlete envelopes announced

Mathman

SeaniBu

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

Mathman

antmanb

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

MKFSfan

antmanb

antmanb

Mathman

MKFSfan

Mathman

Sylvia

Mathman

Mathman

Skye

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

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