- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
And that's the difference between a competitive skater and a show skater.
Joe
Joe
Joesitz said:And that's the difference between a competitive skater and a show skater.
Joe
If US titles were based on international success, then Cohen would have been the 2004 and 2005 US Champion. Same with Sarah Hughes in 2003. Sasha and Sarah lost out, because Kwan outskated them on all 3 occasions, despite finishing behind the others at major competitions.
I recall that slutskayafan pooh-poohed Lysacek's World bronze in 2005 as a fluke and said it wouldn't happen again, but it did. Generally speaking, slutskayafan seems to hold US skaters in low regard compared to skaters of other countries. I don't know why she/he feels that she/he is an expert at internal USFS politics.
slutskayafan21 said:As for Weir, Johnny who? He would love Lambiel's mental toughness or resume, but he has neither, and never will.
debdelilah said:Lambiel's resume at this point will be hard for most people to match. Two time world champion. He's great. But why bash Johnny Weir? Johnny may not be consistant, but he has shown that he is capable of pulling off victories on the heels of his injuries and defeats. If he had no mental toughness, he would never have won Nationals in the first place--much less three times in a row. And he does have a quality about his skating that is unique.
I admire all of them really. If I had fractured my leg training for the quad, like Johnny did in 2001, and faced a combination of injuries and humiliation like he did in 2003, I doubt I would have been able to have the strength he did to come back in 2004 and win Nationals. And do it again in 2005, and fight through a bad season to do it again in 2006.
slutskayafan21 said:chuckiem was raving about Weir after the 05 season, and saying how lucky people like Lambiel and Buttle were that he was injured at Worlds, how wrong I was to talking new World Champion Lambiel up so much, how dismissing Weir would come back to bite me. Well here we are a year later and Lambiel is the 2-time World Champion, Olympic silver medalist, did that all despite a chronic knee injury that had him close to withdrawing altogether from both events, and despite getting zero credit for his incredable spins under the ridiculous scoring system(that would be like taking away Stojko's quads in his prime and then seeing what he could do). Weir on the other hand is still a 0-time World and Olympic medalist who has lost to Lambiel 5 straight times dating back to the 2000 Worlds(where Weir had the competition of his life, and Lambiel had alot of mistakes and still finished above I might add); Buttle 4 straight times dating back to the 2001 Worlds; and Lysacek in 3 straight World/Olympic events.
Sorry but I have been proven wrong on far less then the individual who chooses to bring up something I said over a year ago.
slutskayafan21 said:Sorry I am always thinking in the past quadrennials. I often post years wrong in 4 holes, thinking in the quadrennial sense.
I am not looking to diminish anyone beyond reason. I am just stating that chuckiem to bring up my possably being wrong on Lysacek being a fluke bronze medalist at last years Worlds, hardly makes me look back with regret, when he was the one trumpeting how Lambiel's World win was a flukish result which was far from a foreshadowing of his 05-06 season as I made it out to be, which Lambiel proved dead wrong of course on a wonky knee, and how Weir was vastly underrated by me and was going to really show me something in the coming season which he did nothing of the sort.
slutskayafan21 said:Hughes had been injured almost the entire 02-03 season, as had Kwan, everybody considered Hughes an underdog to both Kwan and Cohen even after her Olympic Gold though, and being injured almost the entire season did nothing to change that. Based on international results in the 02-03 season Cohen would have had the edge, and since the judges were willing to give her so many 5.9s for presentation for her badly flawed performances she probably did have their edge but made so many mistakes they had no choice but to place her 3rd..
slutskayafan21 said:Going into the 2004 U.S Nationals Kwan had been injured most of the season, but Cohen had still never medaled at Worlds, while Kwan had won the previous Worlds where Cohen had been 4th, and Cohen had just recently been upset at the GP final by Suguri where she had 3 falls over 2 programs. So no real reason Cohen would have had the advantage based on international results going into those Nationals, particularly after her big upset loss at the GP final. In 2005 both had been injured, Cohen had placed higher at Worlds(2nd)to Kwans(3rd)but Kwan had beaten Cohen in the free skate at Worlds, and likely only placed below Cohen at Worlds because of a timing deduction in the short program. There was the added hype of Kwan going to tie the record. In the short Kwan had the much sharper cleaner performance, in the long both were similarly flawed in their skating..
slutskayafan21 said:You are one to talk, you also pooh-poohed Lambiel's gold at the 2005 Worlds, and said dont expect such continued success from him, and referred to me as very biased to call him as clearly one of top 2 skaters in the World(conceding a healthy Plushenko as the best), and also argued Weir's superiority and his better chances of success. Well a year later Lambiel is the Olympic Silver medalist, and 2-time World Champion, and did it all on a badly injured knee which had him considering to withdraw from both Worlds and the Olympics up until a week before the event. His results clearly prove him as the best mens skater, outside of Plushenko today, as much as it must pain you you have no basis anymore to argue otherwise and would look like an idiot trying to do so. If Plushenko does move on he clearly in leading the way heading into the next quadrennial, and the skater to beat. As for Weir, Johnny who? He would love Lambiel's mental toughness or resume, but he has neither, and never will.
chuckm said:I said Lambiel would not beat a healthy Plushenko, and that turned out to be 100% true. Lambiel was a distant 2nd to Plushy at Torino. And Weir beat Lambiel in the SP.
Lambiel's knee is the main reason why he will probably not be dominant into the next quadrennial. He's already had two surgeries which have not been able to stand up to the stresses of quads and 3As.
Never say "Never will". It could come back to haunt you.
chuckm said:Hughes "injured almost the entire 02-03 season...as had Kwan"? Since when? Hughes reported she had a slight knee strain and backed out of 2002 Campbell's and her GP events, but the "injured" Kwan replaced Slutskaya at Campbell's (which she won) and Hughes at Skate America (which she won). In fact, Kwan went on to win the Winter Cheesefest, Nationals, Worlds and the Spring cheesefest for her first undefeated season in years. Pretty good for someone who was "injured" all season.
As for Hughes, after miraculously recovering from the 'injury' that kept her out of Campbell's and the GP events in October, she skated at the Crest competition in November and the Hallmark competition in December before competing at Nationals and Worlds.
Sasha had finished 4th at both Worlds and Olympics in 2002, and despite doing well in the GP (and winning Crest), she did not exactly have a winning hand going into 2003 Nationals since at that time, the GPF was held AFTER Nationals and GP events alone did not have any particular cachet.
I don't know where you are getting all these fictitious injuries. Kwan had NOT been injured in the 2004-2005 season. She simply chose not to compete in the GP, and at no time gave injury as a reason. She DID skate at Campbell's, where she finished 2nd to Sasha for the first time. Sasha won all 3 of her GP events but faltered in the Winter cheesefest, where she finished 3rd behind Kwan and Arakawa, then lost to Suguri in the GPF. But this was the inaugural CoP season in the GP, and Sasha had racked up the highest scores of any lady. She was considered by most in the skating community to be a cinch to win the US Champonship, but it did not happen.
There is no way that Kwan could have beaten Sasha at 2004 Worlds, since she had finished 3rd in the QR and 4th in the SP, while Sasha had won her QR and the SP, as well. Under 6.0, Sasha would have to have finished 5th or lower in the FS for Kwan to pass her.
There was no such thing as the "added hype of tying the record" for 2004 Nationals. That was a factor for 2005 Nationals. 2004-2005 was the season where SASHA was injured and sat out the GP (after Campbell's, of course, where she lost to Kwan), but Kwan did as well. Going into 2005 Nationals, Sasha was the one with the better international credentials, as she was the World silver medalist and the CoP veteran. Kwan's programs were notably CoP deficient, but Sasha still finished 2nd.
slutskayafan21 said:Well I honestly think Evan is the U.S's #1 for the next quadrennial, and it is not bias as I hate Evan much more than Weir who I am fairly neutral on even though I find him way overhyped. That is just reality. The U.S men are not strong enough for their #2 guy to have much chance, only their #1 guy will have some podium aspirations, the U.S men are not the equivalent of the U.S women, even the #1 guy is an underdog guy on the World scene. So if indeed Weir is only second fiddle in the U.S, and that becomes even more clear througout the figure skating community then it already is, his hopes of ever winning a World/Olympic medal are next to nil barring a meltdown Worlds. However if I am wrong and either Johnny does take back his former role as the top American skater(even as we speak I dont believe he is this based on his very narrow U.S title, when Even is beating him repeatedly at big events internationaly), or they dont have a clear #1 and it is a pretty even thing, then he might still have some viable hopes on the international stage.
debdelilah said:Johnny lost 7.5 points in the long program at Nationals this year because of a COP mistake he made--he lost out because of the rule that prevents credit for a repetition of jumps, and would have scored substatially higher if he hadn't lost credit there.
I'm not sure how you think he's being overrated. At this moment, I think he's underrated, not in terms of what he did this season, but in terms of what he can do. He was mocked, belittled, and recieved hatemail after placing fifth at the Olympics, while Evan received great praise for his perseverance in placing fourth. At Worlds, he was criticized for not wanting to be there, and people who doubted him after the Olympics doubted him even more after he skated in the free program at Worlds.
At this moment, he has probably lost fans that he had last year and the year before, not because his skating was bad this season per se, but because expectations were so high. But he's still the same person who raised those expectations in the first place. He's a person who didn't put on skates until he was 12, and may reach his peak later than others who started earlier. I don't know how successful he'll be, but I expect he'll try not only the quad but the 4-3-2 this season. He is a fighter, whether or not he wins.