Another "cuz it's the off season" thread

So, I've been spending a lot of time watching YouTube and various other links, rewatching/rereading post interviews, reports, etc. I've started to think about skaters who never made it, due to injuries or work ethic.

Tonya Harding is the greatest waste of natural talent. She had HUGE jumps and nice spins. I bet if she skated under COP, she would be one to have 3/3's, be a 3axle or quad threat and noone would care that she's not some "baby ballerina". Nicole had so much talent, but no work ethic. She did win a National title and World Bronze, but she probably could have acheived so much more had she worked harder.

What boggles me is when people discuss "natural talent" or "wasted talent". Sasha seems to get linked to both. On one hand, she's praised as having the "most raw talent" or being "the most talented ladies skater". On the other hand, she gets the backlash as "wasted talent" or "not living up to her talent". I don't get it. The very thing that has made Sasha so special has been the same things that have helped her be so successful over the years: extreme flexibility, natural spinner and innate artistic quality. Sasha's been blessed with the body type she has-she's very straight, with a longer torso that makes her a great spinner. Her flexibility comes from the way her ligments are put together (obviously, both are furthered through hard work). Artisticly, she's been able to put out performances that catch your attention. Another thing that is hard to teach. She has never had huge jumps, difficult combos or been fast. Her jumps got smaller as she got older. These are things she's had to work hard on. The very thing that keeps her off the top of the podium time after time is the thing she probably has to work hardest on-landing her jumps. I wonder how much is due to early training-not having deep, secure edges early on, not having a lutz. That's a coaching issue, not a sign of poor work ethic. Maybe it's strength vs. flexibility thing. Publish reports have linked extreme flexibility to loss of strength. Or maybe it's an endurance thing. Or maybe it is all in he head. I don't know. Each year, people come up with a new excuse. How does that make her "wasting talent" when her spins and spirals and artistry are what keep her in the top 4 year after year?

Then you look at, say, Kimmie. She more athletic, more "jumping bean" and has to work very hard to be artistic. She can land more triples as well as 2 3/3's in a LP. Does that make her less talented than Sasha? Or Michelle. Everyone talks about her work ethic, how she works like crazy. Well, I doubt you can stay at the top for over 10 years without lots of natural talent. Michelle at 13 was not as musical or lyrical as NNN (who was a phenom, no other 13 year is like that!) but she still had a special style about her that Kimmie did not have at 15 or 16. She still had natural movement with her arms and expressions that fit the music. She was considered "just" a jumping bean that grew into an artist. Does that make her less "natural"?

I can't think of many skaters who have been able to combine raw natural athlectism with top notch artistry. There are several who come close. I think, if Shizuka had landed a 3/3 in Turin, 7 clean triples, then she would be the poster child for this. Yu Na Kim looks like she just may be that type of skater. If Mao and Kimmie contiune to improve on their artistry while keeping their 3/3's, 3axle, those 3 could be VERY interesting to watch!!

Some ramblings from a bored fan...Any thoughts???

When I look at Michelle's skating, I do not see a natural talent. I see a skater who was fortunate enough to fall into the hands of an excellent coach , who had the discipline and work ethic to follow through on what that coach had taught her, and the good fortune to have remained short (unlike her sister who grew to 5'7). One thing I notice of Asian skaters in general is that they practice very methodically. Ie, they start with stroking, work on edges and then jump and spin. Conversely with white skaters, some practice like Asians and are very good skaters while others just work on spins and jumps and don't have good technique on these elements.

In terms of Sasha; I just don't think jumping is her thing. From what I've seen of her on COI, her edging and stroking isn't bad at all but she just doesn't seem like a natural jumper. I think Sasha works very hard to get the triple jumps that she has and it's a credit to her that she has been very consistent in her placements despite having somewhat wonky jumps. There are skaters like Ryan Jahnke who have wonky jumps but just can't hold on to them enough to achieve top world placements.

Unfortunately I've never seen Kimmie in person, but she appears to be a very natural jumper. I've seen many kids who can easily do double axels when they are young. They just launch into them like they are nothing at all and have such spring. However Kimmie may not maintain that natural spring as she gets older.

I don't get how any one of such a high competition standard cannot have any natural talent. Yes, hard work, good training will get you far, but look at so many skaters who don't make it to the upper ranks but do have the desire to win. How about Lucinda Ruh? The best lady spinner, and could not get the tougher jumps. There's gotta be a connection between natural talent and work ethic. Because you brought it up: Karen vs. Michelle-Karen was a lovely, lyrical skater. She even had some tough connecting elements to her jumps. She is an example of what work ethic will produce. Not only did she get too tall, but she never had the same ability Michelle had, from the get go.

I do agree that Michelle was in good hands early on to establish good, solid skating basics that stayed with her over the course of her career. She may not have the huge, spring jumps of some (Irina, Julia) but how many actually do? I don't think there's a question Michelle is very talented, but I do believe she has natural athletic ability that made her a top skater.

I do think there are more cases of natural talent that doesn't get fully acheived (Julia, Viki with their amazing spring on jumps for example) than skaters with tremendous work ethic that aren't natural athletes.

Very interesting topic!

My husband has this opinion on figure skaters that I will contribute on his behalf...

Sasha Cohen is a skater who has the gift of flexibility... a gift that would've gotten her a gold medal in gymnastics in Syndey...

Michelle Kwan is an athlete with a soldier's mentality. Or what he calls the "ultimate sports machine." Someone made for competitive sports. His dream is that she quits skating and takes up soccer...

I agree and disagree on his conclusion but agree with his basic idea...

~ Some people are simply born for atheletics. I think Michelle is one of these people. I think the same about Irina and Kimmie. Gifted atheles who are so well trained that they are able to produce on a dime making it easy to dismiss the natural gift.

~ Some people have the right body type, the talent, etc but lack the mental game. Sasha & Nicole (and maybe Lucinda ~ never really followed her career), etc fall into this catergory. Luckily, Sasha has great training, something that gets overlooked, that keeps her right at the top. I'd call Sasha a lot of things, but lazy isn't one of them... imo, she's simply got a mental block about competition and some bad technique

Well put!

I'm also of the belief some people just have the drive to excell, and would no matter what field they enter. Which is why some are able to have duel careers/hobbies that they succeed in. Sasha and others may not have the nerves of steel that some do, but there's no doubt they have the competitive drive to be the best and no way can you call them lazy! Questionable work ethics, perhaps.

Natural talent, especially a LOT of it, can be a dangerous thing. Two words -- Christopher Bowman. As Kurt Browning once said, "He was so good, it bored him." I think Bowman, along with Tonya Harding and Nicole Bobek, were not necessarily so bored with their natural talent, but were under the impression that since it came so easily to them, they didn't have to put in the work to get to the top. Natural talent can certainly be a waste if the sense of discipline is not there.

As for Michelle, I'd put her at about half natural talent, half great brain -- BUT in her case it's also been a double edged sword. Regardless of brain, you certainly have to be a natural talent to some extent to make Senior Nationals at 12, as she did. But someone said of Michelle -- I think it was Lori Nichol -- that the MAIN reason she got where she did was because you only had to show her something once and she could do it, and keep doing it the same way from then on. (Barbara Underhill is another one who can do this.) However, why I say her brain is a double edged sword is because -- well, I truly feel that Michelle is absolutely brilliant and would be in whatever she decided to pursue. But what comes with that is -- THINKING TOO MUCH. And she has admitted that she's been known to do this. It certainly cost her in Nagano and SLC, and to me, in her last National victory it totally looked to me like she was thinking and mentally checking off each element as she was skating. She skated well -- but it wasn't even in the top 10 of her best winning free skates at major competitions.

Sasha? Well, she's naturally flexible. Natural talent for skating to a certain extent, but some serious mental blockage. It was speculated on this board some time ago that ADD may be the problem. I don't know if it is or not, but I would be willing to bet that it might be part of the problem with Ryan Bradley -- another natural talent who's not getting the results and not skating as well as he could.

But I don't think any mention of natural talent would be complete without bringing up Johnny Weir. When you don't start till you're -- 12? 13? -- and then have 3 National Senior titles by the time you're 21 -- and are a bit of a flake into the bargain -- THAT'S natural talent. I think Kimmie's a natural, too; I saw her at an exhibition a couple of years before she made Seniors, and that girl had it together even then.

I would have to think Sasha almost could classify in the "nerves of steal" category, the problem may be that she goes "ridged" with her mentality. Although I am not much for the astrology thing, it seems she fits the classic Scorpio profile. She "thinks" she has the "natural" but in reality it comes purely from tenacity. Which in some ways is more admirable because she has had to work harder to accomplish what comes more "naturally" to others.

MK does seem to be a perfect example of a soldier - great theory, but a soldier that can dance . In some ways I would say she has a "soldier's complex" where she would rush the field for glory even though it means certain death - yet like Wyatt Erp, the bullets never seem to hit her.. She also has charm galore! A flair for the audience and ability to connect - seems that might be the reason Fumie admires her so, you look to those who have what you wish you had more of.

Kimmie I feel, is somewhat of a combination of the two, yet her emphasis on the ice to "connecting" is reserved for when she is off. And I see "rhythm" in her but not her routines, as if someone doesn't think it is important for her to develop in those two areas when competing (and they might be right, I don't know).

Ira, what could I say bad about her - nothing. Her self sure attitude that often comes across as bratty, only proves her focus, high standards and unstoppable desire. To me she seems like a general, a leader. An inspiration in accomplishment AND perseverance. Even though she has a natural talent, her body went against her, but not her brain. Not one that would go screaming across a battle field, but one that would advance and retreat when necessary, even if her army had less of a chance to win. She would do what she could to keep the spirt high and take as few casualties as possible.

seanibu said:

I would have to think Sasha almost could classify in the "nerves of steal" category, the problem may be that she goes "ridged" with her mentality.

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I don't think Sasha would fall under the "nerves of steel" category. Those with nerves of steel would not succumb under pressure time after time. Noone is perfect, obvioulsy, and could have bad days when it matters most-Michelle at SLC, Irina at Turin. But both Michelle and Irina have nerves of steel and can rise to the occasion when it counts. So did Tara and Sarah. IMO, Sasha wants to win very, very badly. She has that desire and aggressiveness, but when push comes to shove, she lets her mental lapses get in her way.

MKFSfan said:

I don't think Sasha would fall under the "nerves of steel" category. Those with nerves of steel would not succumb under pressure time after time. Noone is perfect, obvioulsy, and could have bad days when it matters most-Michelle at SLC, Irina at Turin. But both Michelle and Irina have nerves of steel and can rise to the occasion when it counts. So did Tara and Sarah. IMO, Sasha wants to win very, very badly. She has that desire and aggressiveness, but when push comes to shove, she lets her mental lapses get in her way.

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... "nerves of steal" category, the problem may be that she goes "ridged" with her mentality

With Michelle, the question isn't if she has natural gifts - duh! - but which ones. I am no MK expert but she seems to lack the flexibility and speed that come naturally to some.

As for Kimmie, she seems to lack the natural flexibility and grace of a Sasha or a Yu Na Kim or a NNN, and frankly everything I know about the performing arts tells me that is NOT something acquirable. But she may get better choreography, costumes, and makeup, and she can learn to handle her arms better. In which case, if she stays on top of her game technically, she probably won't need the beauty-element to keep medalling. She is more of a skating athlete, others lean toward the artistic side of skating.

seanibu said:

... "nerves of steal" category, the problem may be that she goes "ridged" with her mentality

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OK...I'm not sure what that means. Sorry if I misinterpreted you once again. I suppose you mean "rigid" as in appearing stiff? I must have missed the point since nerves of steel basically mean a person remains unfazed even when under pressure.

MKFSfan said:

OK...I'm not sure what that means. Sorry if I misinterpreted you once again. I suppose you mean "rigid" as in appearing stiff? I must have missed the point since nerves of steel basically mean a person remains unfazed even when under pressure.

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OH NO! Didn't mean it mean. I really never mean anything snide unless I PM - well sometimes it slips. So appologies are all mine for not haveing a better blend of humor and skill in writting - it would have worked with a visual aid.

I think you said it that people could understand, I said it trying to be clever, but I think we said a similar thing. "She goes riddged with her nerves, get her to a point and just go stiff, so as they are unable to move ("brain freeze") - hence as in days of old, she would fall at a routine over 3 minutes cause her nerves froze like a sheet of metal and she hit the ice. I put the love smile because I mean it all in jest. Or maybe we said something entirely different. ?? I just didn't wan't anyone thinking I believed her to have the "A typical" nerves of steel that everone thinks of when hearing that phrase, I just spun it a little different and think she has some for a while and then she goes.... splat.

I guess for once I am thankful no one was "uneasy" over my MK analogy for a change. YEH HAW!!!!

I do love MK too!

Oddly, when I think 'biggest waste of talent' I think Janet Lynn. Not that she squandered it--she just walked away from it. I wish she had stayed in for the 1976 Olympics; who knows what could have happened. She was probably the most lyrical female skater in U.S. history, and she quit too soon. Such a shame.

Now that'd be a good thread -- skaters who we feel walked away too soon. Hmm. I might start that one -- tomorrow, tho....

Other natural talents that fell by the wayside -- but due to injuries, not due to bad work ethic -- Tiffany Chin (never the same after her mother insisted on having her whole body realigned or some such thing; she even had to re-learn how to WALK after that process was over), and Jill Sawyer (injured in an auto accident shortly after Carlo Fassi took over her training; she was in the same "class" [time frame wise] as Elaine Zayak and Rosalynn Sumners; both Fassi and Sumners felt that had she not gotten injured, she would have won the 84 and 88 Olys).

seanibu said:

I guess for once I am thankful no one was "uneasy" over my MK analogy for a change. YEH HAW!!!!

I do love MK too!

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I thought your analogy of Michelle as a soldier is right on the mark! She's tough, gritty and shows up to succeed! "Bullets" would be the contstant criticism she always endures never derails her. She knows who she is and what she can do, and that's very important. My favorite part was :

seanibu said:

She also has charm galore! A flair for the audience and ability to connect - seems that might be the reason Fumie admires her so, you look to those who have what you wish you had more of.

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:agree: