I think Moniotte & Lavanchy should get a mention. They almost won the 1995 Europeans (Rahkamo & Kokko won by one vote) but when Anissina & Peizerat overtook them as the top French pair they really lost it. Didn't they finish outside Top 10 in their final Worlds?
In 2002? Nope, Ira won.Originally Posted by Mathman
I hope you meant 2003. Past her prime or not, she won the world championship that year.
MM
I have always had my doubts that M & L's drop in the standings had anything to do with their actual skating; I think that was an Ice Dance Politics thing. There seemed to be a trend that went on for many years, that if a couple had to withdraw from Worlds due to injury, they were automatically knocked down a place or two the following season (like Bourne & Kraatz in 01 and a few other couples.) Had Anissina & Peizerat not followed in their wake and picked up the slack while they were gone, M & L might have maintained their ranking, or close to it. However, since a lot of pre-judging was going on in Dance at that time (remember this was around the time of the Nagano Bloc Judging scandal), by the time M & L came back, other couples were then placed ahead of them. I find it hard to believe that their skating skills could have possibly disinegrated THAT much for them to fall all the way down to 11th place after having been on the podium twice. And of course we have the French Federation factor here, too -- they were pretty much playing politics and since only the Russians were allowed to have more than one couple in the World top 5, Moniotte & Lavanchy were pretty much the sacrificial lambs for France; they couldn't make a push for both them and Anissina & Peizerat at the same time; they had to choose one or the other, and Moniotte & Lavanchy made it easier on them by getting injured.
Naturally, this is all speculation on my part, but this was one of many Dance judging/placing incidents taking place during the 90s that I always found more than a little odd and extremely suspect....
Can we ask this question another way? What Skaters stayed Past their Prime or Longer then I wanted them to? Its not up to me to decide when another has reached their prime. Some of the named skaters won Medals long after we decided they were past their prime. I may not care for a skater but that doesnt mean their prime is on my schedule , its on theirs. Seems their prime means I want them to retire. I say let them skate till they decide to stop. Surprises happen.
Maria Petrova struggled with an ankle injury for a couple of years after winning the 2000 worlds. After the 2002 season they made many improvements in their skating. They replaced the throw triple toe with a throw triple loop, which has a higher value. They added sbs triple salchows in order to be competitive. They improved their speed also. They were a better pair in 2004-2006 than in 2000. What hurt their placements was COP where the stylistic pairs skating (posture, lines, unison) did not have that much value. They clearly enjoyed skating and competing and improving, even though their best finish after 2000 was 'only' a world silver (2005). IMO that is a good enough reason to stick around for so many years.
Vash
Last edited by Vash01; 05-29-2006 at 01:48 PM.
Or maybe the reason why M&L were so high in the first place was because of politics.
This is such a controversial thread because we all have different opinions on how an athlete chooses to go out. Maybe one wants to go out on top before others top them, or injuries take their toll, and maybe others stay in because they love to compete and skate regardless of final placings. When all is said and done, what will be remembered about Michelle is her longetivity and her many wins. If Michelle does indeed leave eligible skating now, 50 years from now surely noone will be saying,"Well, Michelle missed the podium in her last international competition..." they'll be talking about a skater with an amazing decade of staying at the top. Maybe today, some fans think that and dismiss her resume, but really, I think any athlete has the right to determine their destiny. If Sasha retires too, well, a medal at 3 of the biggest events of the season is pretty amazing, regardless of expectations.
IMO, the only way skaters stay around too long is if their injuries prevent them from being a shell of their selves. Unfortunately, I do think that of Elvis and seeing him struggle was heartbreaking for me. I don't think a skater still on the scene when others are challenging to pass them counts, because as many have pointed out, a truly great skater will still give memorable performances, regardless of where they place (for example: Lu Chen Olympics 1998, Michelle 2004 Nationals and her record tying 2005 Nats.)
Petrova and Tikhonov were actually a more serious contender in the quadrennial from the 02-03 season through until the 05-06 season, then they were in the 00-01 and 01-02 seasons. Even though they did not win another World title and were not favored to win any one year, they were considered a contender to the gold atleast 3 of the year(2004, 2005, 2006)something they certainly were not in either 01 and 02. While there were enough contenders they could easily be bumped right off the podium still, they knew if they skated cleanly they very very likely would win a medal of some color, which was also different then the 00-01 and 01-02 seasons where even with clean performances they could easily be 4th-6th. They were a real contender for an Oly medal in 06, not the gold which Totmianina/Marinin really had in the bag, but a silver or bronze, with alot of tough competition, but still a valid chance; where in 02 they went in really with no chance at all, in fact with 2 perfect performances they still were a distant 6th. So all in all their competitive situation in the 02-03 until the 05-06 quadrennial was much improved from the 2 season after their 00 World title; so I think they made a great decision to continue. It must have been nice going into competitions knowing you were atleast more of a player then they did the two seasons after their World title were Berezhnaya/Sikharlidze, Sale/Pelletier, and Shen/Zhou were all 110% out of their reach.
Had Elvis Stojko won the gold medal in Nagano, it's very possible he may have turned pro. But with the injury, he had something to prove. Unfortunately, he was never really able to prove it. He did have some redemption when he won the silver medal at Worlds in 2000, but the following season it was injury after injury. Despite a nice job at 2002 Canadians, the SLC Olympics were not good. And going back and using his 1994 music was a horrible decision. I can still watch that 94 Olympic performance and get chills. Watching him skate to the same music eight years later just made me shudder.
Just because someone won medals doesn't mean they didn't overstay. From 1992-1998, Elvis Stojko was truly great. After that, much of the time it made you uncomfortable to watch him skate. Granted, he did win a few medals during that time. He kept waiting for this moment when the chip would fall off his shoulder, but it never did.
Last edited by Pixie Cut; 05-31-2006 at 09:16 AM.
OK, I have to say that after 2003 she was given the Nationals. The skating was not inspired nor difficult & the 6.0s just kept coming in.ITA. Besides worlds in 2003 Michelle won a couple more United States Championships also.
Although I think she totally deserved her 2004 and 2005 U.S. titles, I would agree the skating was certainly not inspired.
I thought her Nationals performance of Tosca in 2004 was outstanding. Plus, the way the emotions of the evening were building up and amid all the whispers that maybe this was the year that she would falter at last, to me it was a satisfying and well-deserved win.
As to whether Michelle received a "gift" in either 2004 or 2005, it's a competition. The 6.0s, etc., are just place-holders for the convenience of the judges. You don't have to be perfect to win the title (as was born out in spades at Torino), just better than the other guys.
Nobody else stepped up to Michelle's challenge, end of competition.
Considering that, at 2004 Nats, Sasha got a 6.0 with a fall, I don't see how you can say that Michelle "was given the Nationals." Sasha's marks indicated to me that the judges would have loved to give her the gold, if she could only hold it together. The fact that Sasha couldn't do it is not the fault of the judges nor of MK.
Have you ever read Sophie Moniotte's book?I have always had my doubts that M & L's drop in the standings had anything to do with their actual skating; I think that was an Ice Dance Politics thing. There seemed to be a trend that went on for many years, that if a couple had to withdraw from Worlds due to injury, they were automatically knocked down a place or two the following season (like Bourne & Kraatz in 01 and a few other couples.) Had Anissina & Peizerat not followed in their wake and picked up the slack while they were gone, M & L might have maintained their ranking, or close to it. However, since a lot of pre-judging was going on in Dance at that time (remember this was around the time of the Nagano Bloc Judging scandal), by the time M & L came back, other couples were then placed ahead of them. I find it hard to believe that their skating skills could have possibly disinegrated THAT much for them to fall all the way down to 11th place after having been on the podium twice. And of course we have the French Federation factor here, too -- they were pretty much playing politics and since only the Russians were allowed to have more than one couple in the World top 5, Moniotte & Lavanchy were pretty much the sacrificial lambs for France; they couldn't make a push for both them and Anissina & Peizerat at the same time; they had to choose one or the other, and Moniotte & Lavanchy made it easier on them by getting injured.
Naturally, this is all speculation on my part, but this was one of many Dance judging/placing incidents taking place during the 90s that I always found more than a little odd and extremely suspect....
Isn't it titled something like Blades of Rage?
I find her anger kind of ridiculous. The two World medals they won were gifts as far as I could see. But I suppose she came to believe they were actually good. What a surprise to find out where they actually deserved to be placed.
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