What are the Japanese doing right? (or wrong)

Spun Silver said:

I just hope never to learn that all these children were separated from their families at age 5 in order to make great skaters out of them.

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Well, I cannot be sure about all of the skaters, but I don't feel it was the case.

I know that Nobunari Oda decided to become a skater out of his own free will; he wanted to follow in his mother steps (who was also a skater, and become a coach after she got married). Quoting his mother, he had complete ZERO of talent, and at some point she even suggested that maybe he should give up the competetive skating, as Nobu didn't seem to have much success at it. However, quoting Nobunari, he felt that he couldn't give up just yet.
And it's a good thing for japanese figure skating that he didn't, because he started winning soon afterwards. After he started being coached by Lee Barkell he literally skyrocketed in the world standings, suddenly winning the Junior Worlds and placing 3th at Japanese Nationals.
"We don't need to push him, he pushes himself", as Lee said at some point.

Oh, and when you said about the world domination, it made me think about a funny interview I recently watched. In the interview Noriko, Nobunari's mum, said jokingly that It would be good if the 17th descendant could carry out the dream which couldn't be accomplished by his ancestor. Nobu, while laughing, replied that he'll do his best to dominate the world.

Takahiko Kozuka, the current World Junior Champion, also comes from a skating family. He seems to be very enthusiastic about the skating as well.

...If I'm going to write about every single skater, this post will never end.
To cut the long story short, I'll just say that the only skaters that i've seen being visibly upset about their training were Miki Ando and Shizuka Arakawa.
Miki at some point even said that she doesn't "love" skating, and, sadly, I think it shows. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Shizuka mentioned that the stretching exercises were painful for her... I think she was actually more upset about the competetive aspect of skating (and the stress and hectic training that comes with it) than about the skating itself, though. Now, when she became a pro, she does her best to promote figure skating. She said that it is sad that so many rinks in Japan, including the one where she started to skate, are gone; and she would like to do something to change that. Otherwise a lot of talent could go to waste, just because the young skaters will not have a place where they could train.


Getting back to the topic; I think it's extremely difficult to pinpoint what exactly are Japanese "doing right". Their top skaters are very much different from each other, having different abilities and different styles. There's genius skater Mao and genius of hard work Nobunari; there's Miki and Daisuke who bloomed early, and Fumie and Shizuka, who bloomed later. What has proven to be a great approach in the case of one skater (assigning a foreign coach to Oda), didn't work so well on other skater (Miki Ando).
What a lot of them has in common is the love for sport and determination - but all skaters should possess those qualities, shouldn't they?

Oh, and someone mentioned the surprising lack of success in dance/pairs as in contrast to the success of Japanese single skaters. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that a lot of Japanese boys is, well, of rather mediocre height, to put it gently. It would be difficult to find a partner short enough for them, I think.

Thanks for the insights. Good to hear the reassurance that skating is the skaters' decision, for the most part.

Okami said:

Their top skaters are very much different from each other, having different abilities and different styles.

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Yes, this is part of the mystery - no national style that I can tell... except that there seems to be a great concentration of lyricism in the Japanese contingent, more than you would find on the US side, to my eye. Even a jumping bean like Mao, IMO, is more polished and delicate on the artistic side than the American bean Kimmie.I would think they are being coached to develop both sets of skills.

Oh, and someone mentioned the surprising lack of success in dance/pairs as in contrast to the success of Japanese single skaters. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that a lot of Japanese boys is, well, of rather mediocre height, to put it gently. It would be difficult to find a partner short enough for them, I think.

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Makes sense to me.

Spun Silver said:

Yes, this is part of the mystery - no national style that I can tell... except that there seems to be a great concentration of lyricism in the Japanese contingent, more than you would find on the US side, to my eye. Even a jumping bean like Mao, IMO, is more polished and delicate on the artistic side than the American bean Kimmie.I would think they are being coached to develop both sets of skills.

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I've never gave this matter a longer thought, but now that you mention it...
Maybe it has something to do with the Japanese culture..? As Takeshi Honda mentioned in one of the commentaries he was making, it's considered okay for people (especially young) to show emotions; and lots of Japanese skaters I've seen was /really/ emotional off the ice (see Oda/Nakano crying fits ). The western ideal of the athlete, I feel, is more, well, about being athletic, composed, getting a grip on oneself and not losing control easily.
Of course it is not an iron rule, but maybe it is easier to turn a lyrical, emotional performance for those who, in some way, have already had an experience of expressing emotions? As in, they are not afraid of over-emoting and being considered silly, because at subconsious level they feel its okay to emote..?

That's just my personal thought.

What are the Japanese doing right? Training, training, training - much like the training the Russian skaters do at a young age. Our youngsters in North America could benefit from the example these young athletes set.

Okapi, thanks for the great posts, especially the scoop on Nobunari Oda. :agree:

Spun Silver said:

Yes, this is part of the mystery - no national style that I can tell... except that there seems to be a great concentration of lyricism in the Japanese contingent, more than you would find on the US side, to my eye. Even a jumping bean like Mao, IMO, is more polished and delicate on the artistic side than the American bean Kimmie.I would think they are being coached to develop both sets of skills.


.

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I was watching junior worlds this year and looking at the Japanese ladies as a whole, I think there are some similarities between them even though they are very diverse. For one thing, I don't think there are a lot of coaches in Japan and Yuka Sato's father is a coach. We all know what kind of skater Yuka turned out to be and Sato worked with both Shizuka and Fumie at a point. I'm sure that he either worked with Miki or worked with whoever coached Miki (that's how small Japanese skating is). In terms of lyricism, I think the thing that makes these Japanese ladies look so much better than the Western skaters are their skating skills. People like to rag on Miki but Miki has great basic skating skills as do all the Japanese ladies. All of them flow across the ice and have great edges on their crossovers. I also notice that they are all solid spinners as well. I attribute that to working with Sato b/c it is more than evident that Sato is a coach who doesn't take shortcuts with the basics. Yukari said this year that she and Sato worked on her basic skating and she was doing tons of 3 turns (which inspired me to work on my 3 turns).

I think that skaters with soft knees and great posture look more artistic and pleasing to the eye. But I don't see the Japanese juniors looking more artistic than Kimmie; but they have better flow across the ice than Kimmie and Kimmie is still in that gangly phase.

Okapi, thanks for the great posts, especially the scoop on Nobunari Oda.

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Thank you! I collect clips and interviews with Nobunari (and the rest of the Team Japan as well), mostly because he's such a hilarious person and most of the interviews had me rolling on the floor laughing.
I summarized a few fluff pieces/interviews on the fsvids boards, and, as soon as I'm done with my exams, I plan to improve my poor japanese skills and tackle the rest of the interviews. If the Osaka dialect doesn't finish me off first...

...Well, I have to amuse myself somehow in the off-season.

Interesting Topic!
Simple lack of Ice time preclude any JPN success in Pairs and Ice Dancing since these disciplines require far more dedicated ice time than singles. Imagine practicing most basic ice dance/ pair moves during crowded public skating sessions.
Current success by JPN singles skaters were brought about by several factors.
An emphasis on learning jumps quite a bit earlier than other countries is one factor. The skaters who show high promise in jumps are then trained to improve their basic skating.
Once they prove that they can jump and skate, good choreography from all over the the world is obtained. JPN still does not possess real "name" choreographer. Nakano's "Moulin Rouge" SP, Arakawa's reworked "Turandot" LP, Takahashi and Suguri "Rach" LP were all excellent programs.

This process starts with "New talent discovery camp" held in the summer every year at Teisan Rink in Nobeyama since 1991. Most promising skaters from 9years old up are invited to this camp to show their potential. The camp is designed to assess their potential, athletically, musically, psychologically. The highest scorers are given assistance in coaching and opportunities to compete overseas.

The emphasis on good choreography was a lesson learned from North American and European successes. The selection system itself was a lesson learned from Soviet successes. Since the first group chosen in1991 included names like Takeshi Honda and Shizuka Arakawa, the concept seems to be working.
The counter point to this argument is a skater named Fumie Suguri. She was not really in the "elite" group..until she was half way through Jr High. In a way, one can not help but to admire her individualism and dedication, when everyone around her did not think she would be able to achieve any success in competitive skating. She certainly showed them how far a "non-elite" skater can go.

Maybe, one reason why there aren't (yet) any successful Japanese pairs/dance teams is that success breeds success -- and there hasn't been a ground-breaking team yet. For example, the US has always had a lot of success in the ladies event -- which happens to be the most publicized/most stressed -- but during the time in which the US won 7 OGMs in ladies (and I forgot how many world titles), it won one world title in pairs (with I think 3 Oly medals -- no gold) and zero in ice dance (with 2 Oly medals -- no gold). Similarly, pairs and dance were dominated, first by the Soviet Union and then by Russia, but (a) no Soviet or Russian lady has ever won an OGM (Oksana Baiul won hers as a post-Soviet Ukrainian); and (b) a Russian lady never won worlds until 1999. No Soviet or Russian man won the OGM until Urmanov in '94 (Petrenko is also Ukrainian) -- and look what happened after that!

I think more than anything that Michelle Kwan heavily influenced the Asian skaters. Eventually, they will branch out and think about Midori.

Joe

Tak said:

The counter point to this argument is a skater named Fumie Suguri. She was not really in the "elite" group..until she was half way through Jr High. In a way, one can not help but to admire her individualism and dedication, when everyone around her did not think she would be able to achieve any success in competitive skating. She certainly showed them how far a "non-elite" skater can go.

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She reminds ver much of Maria Butyrskaya in that way. :yes:

I'm not sure what you mean, Joe. Several Japanese skaters have already cited Midori as a inspiration (Asada, Onda, Nakano, etc.). Though I'm sure it does help to see an east Asian face atop the podiums sometimes (re: Kwan).

Fozzie Bear said:

I'm not sure what you mean, Joe. Several Japanese skaters have already cited Midori as a inspiration (Asada, Onda, Nakano, etc.). Though I'm sure it does help to see an east Asian face atop the podiums sometimes (re: Kwan).

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Yeah, I agree, it was Midori who got them stirred up for medals but it was Kwan who go them the lyrical style. JMO.

Joe

Fozzie Bear said:

Though I'm sure it does help to see an east Asian face atop the podiums sometimes (re: Kwan).

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I would not be able to say the "Asian face" has anything to do with it - IT MIGHT. Kwan I think would have been inspirational to anyone, but it might have added to it. But then I think of Fumie and know Kwan was inspirational to her too....so who really knows. Look at Sato for the fact her Pro career she got so good, and as the young Japanese women looked into FS they saw a future for them as well. Not Just because Yuka was Japanese (most likely just got the TV spots during Battle of the Planets), but that she kept going. Who would she not have inspired in any country?

I couldn't say wrong or right with any more then just what I think could help or is hindering. I think that is exactly the same thing that needs improvement in both areas. Expression of individuality. This could be hurting because the culture has soft-spoken atmosphere about the ladies (generally) and when it comes to the ice the big draw is "spark." This could be an advantage because the culture is thought of as being extremely hard working with an never say die attitude that is incredibly inspirational.

I guess after I say that, what comes to mind is a ballance between the two. OMG! I just though Yin and Yang. I guess that is obvious.

I hope I didn't kill another thread, this one was getting good. I should have just kept reading not writing.hwell:

I would not be able to say the "Asian face" has anything to do with it - IT MIGHT.

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I guess that came from a morepersonal experience. When I was in the hoi polloi outside of skating, what initially drew me in was seeing Lu Chen, Kristi Yamaguchi, and Michelle Kwan in the top spots. I think a lot of young Asian Americans like myself were/are hungry for role models (who "look like us"). But now as a skating fan, I can find inspiration in many skaters of different origins and races, whereas before I only identified with skaters on a superficial level.

(Going more off-topic: ) I love your Fumie banner.

Fozzie Bear said:

I guess that came from a morepersonal experience. When I was in the hoi polloi outside of skating, what initially drew me in was seeing Lu Chen, Kristi Yamaguchi, and Michelle Kwan in the top spots. I think a lot of young Asian Americans like myself were/are hungry for role models (who "look like us"). But now as a skating fan, I can find inspiration in many skaters of different origins and races, whereas before I only identified with skaters on a superficial level.

(Going more off-topic: ) I love your Fumie banner.

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I do believe that is definitely a possibility, I may just be my sub-conscience dreaming that the Japanese skaters wouldn't be influenced by such things. But in reality they're young at the time, and as I was trying to say, that might be one of the reasons that Fumie associated MK as the "admired." - ETA, a little further thought, I would say it is LIKELY because she met MK in her home town.

And the publicity that would be aired of a skater for them to see in their youth, most likely would be of Asian decent no matter the country of citizenship. AWA I could be wrong.
I will admit to that my first drive toward FS was because of Yuka - and mainly just a crush at that time.

Glad you like the banner, I am working on a video slideshow of Fumie, but for now it is linked to my Private Ice poems. Hope you liked them, Fumie was the inspiration for "Touches" and Fumie, Irina and Michelle were the inspiration for "Dreams."

Trying to get back on topic.

As the "rights" go, I think it is also a good idea that the focus is on the Ladies, where the men - 2 I can think of - makes me wonder how many Japanese boys skate? I am out of my old "Tokyo work loop" now so I can't ask - I think they all got laid off - That I would think would be another reason there isn't any pairs in comp. JAT. But the attention to Ladies is obviously working. Just surprised with all the talent they have in numbers of possibilities, why there isn't complete dominance. Is it the "spark." i.e. FS had in 2002 that is missing now? Or arguably Yuka's strongest attribute during comp career - maybe that is just me again?

Fozzie Bear said:

I guess that came from a morepersonal experience. When I was in the hoi polloi outside of skating, what initially drew me in was seeing Lu Chen, Kristi Yamaguchi, and Michelle Kwan in the top spots. I think a lot of young Asian Americans like myself were/are hungry for role models (who "look like us"). But now as a skating fan, I can find inspiration in many skaters of different origins and races, whereas before I only identified with skaters on a superficial level.

(Going more off-topic: ) I love your Fumie banner.

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Tiffany Chin, as well. She was "Miss Hollywood" She was the one who turned heads before Miki. We were all waiting for Michelle to "grow up" do this, do that win the Olympic Gold, etc, but Tiffany really set the stage for being a glamour sport. She didn't have to do anything, just basically show up.