Scheherazade | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Scheherazade

Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Still not sure I get it. You're saying it's fine to argue somewhat snappishly, with style and panache, in defense of one's beloved (to use the Platonic term), but not to do so in a way that is tasteless, unimaginative, and obvious?

Or are you ruling out dull, obvious posts at all times?

I'm not sure I can live up to either standard!

This is an interesting board. Sure is different from some others I am not supposed to name!
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Spun Silver said:
Still not sure I get it. You're saying it's fine to argue somewhat snappishly, with style and panache, in defense of one's beloved (to use the Platonic term), but not to do so in a way that is tasteless, unimaginative, and obvious?

Or are you ruling out dull, obvious posts at all times?

I'm not sure I can live up to either standard!

This is an interesting board. Sure is different from some others I am not supposed to name!
Golden Skate, imo does cover a lot of territory despite the Kwan/Cohen gushes.

I don't see anything terribly wrong with a poster who wishes to emphasize what is perceived as faults. It's his/her opinion. But what I would consider in bad taste is that the poster would not be able to see anything positive in that skatter, and constantly present the perceived faults. That much negativity gets boring after a while and I believe their is hidden personality defects in the poster to put so much emotion on a skater that they never met. Skaters are human beings, too. Somewhat similarly I find gushing of the same skater boring. We're talking top figure skaters and since we have never attained such a mearure of success should we as laymen, critique them with knowledge or just distaste?

I rule out dull boring posts mentally. Some posters I can tell what the gist is just by reading the first sentence. I just look for infractions of the GS rules.

Joe
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
MKFSfan said:
I guess, had you said you didn't feel Michelle connected or understood Schez, I would understand better, but to say Michelle is not musical when you know everyone who likes her likes that very thing about her, well, how can it not be insulting?

Well I wonder why people think Michelle is so musical. Michelle's programs pretty much are geared toward landing her jumps. Now I know all skaters create programs for their jumps; but I feel that in Michelle's case, it is all about the jumps. I watched her live on COI this year and she did a program with a lot of choreography because she couldn't do jumps. While I know she is injured, it wasn't the execution of the choreographic elements that was lacking, but rather that they were just elements in themselves and did not relate to the music. That's why I don't really care for Michelle's skating. Now Sasha has her own formulaic movements in terms of her spirals and Russian split jumps but her movements go with the music. The Russian jumps goes with punctuation of the music; her hand movements are timed with the music; her toes and extension seem to follow the crest of the music. I understand that there are only so many movements a skater can do, but some skaters seem to skate to their music a lot better than others. Like Lambiel verses Plushenko.

Fans may love Michelle for her consistency and constant presence on the competitive circuit; they may love her because she always looks happy skating out there; they may even love her because she always wins; but she is not a musical skater and never will be. She just executes what she is told and she does it well enough to land the all important jumps.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
OK, Joe. Thanks. Now I'm clear. Repetitive, one-note gushes or pans are dull for others to read. Makes sense.
 

MKFSfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
MK fans disagree with you, soogar (and so do I) because Michelle DOES offer more than just programs geared to jumps. Without going into specific detail, I have noticed in all her programs certain arm, hand moves to naunces of music, or a leg kick to this or that, and I always felt Michelle's COE spiral (as was before COP changes) was so well timed to a certain spot in the music. I love some of her head tilts that probably were not as much choreographed, but she subconciously placed due to hearing the music in her head. She is among the best in basic edges/stroking among eligibles, and I love watching her FW in that aspect. These things do come out more in exhibitions when jumps are not the empahsis-A Song for You and Fields of Gold stands out the most to me in this aspect. There is more to choreography then pointed toes or split jumps. Her movements/positions in Rach, The Feeling Begins and Lyra, IMO, show Michelle's musicality best. Or the start to the footwork in Aranjuez, to the end pose. Wow, gives me chills thinking of it. It was more than just her joy or passion for skating, it made me feel how the music swells and goes to the choreo. (rather than how the choreo was timed to the music!). I will agree that the past few years have seen Michelle more concerned with increasing speed, the jumps and improving her footwork. But to say she lacks what's made her so great as an artist is stretching it quite a bit.

I think it's easier to see a skater being musical when they choose soft ballets or piano pieces or when a skater is so flexible they resemble a ballerina. But a skater can still be musical with more passionate, dramatic music, and does not need to have perfect extensions to do so, either. The Red Violin, IMO, was one of the best Michelle programs-it combined her technical and artistic ability. Wasn't very easy! Bolero never was "finished" for me, but look at her FW, the emoting was great with the music, the opening part, too, showed musicality, and I feel Michelle didn't fully grasp that piece of music.

I feel that Sasha is musical, too, and I think she works best with familiarity, in her comfort zone, kinda. Mal was amazing the 2nd time around. She's used music from Dark Eyes and R&J a lot, and even if the cuts differ, the theme stays the same, so rather than explore new pieces, I feel she grows more with the familarity of her character (if that makes any sense!). They are different , yet I feel both are artistic and musical. I

As long as I am on this topic-NNN and Oksana are the 2 skaters I think of 1st when I hear "musicality". I never liked many of Oksana's skates, but I have to say all her Swan theme programs are good-just like I said with Sasha, she has that role down pat. I don't find it boring when she reuses, I think it's nice to see her different takes on the same theme.

Anyway, I don't think everyone has to love the same skaters, but I do think saying one of the greatest artists around has no understanding of the music/doesn't feel the music she has portrayed over 10 years is rather insulting.
 
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Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
soogar said:
Well I wonder why people think Michelle is so musical. Michelle's programs pretty much are geared toward landing her jumps. Now I know all skaters create programs for their jumps; but I feel that in Michelle's case, it is all about the jumps. I watched her live on COI this year and she did a program with a lot of choreography because she couldn't do jumps. While I know she is injured, it wasn't the execution of the choreographic elements that was lacking, but rather that they were just elements in themselves and did not relate to the music. That's why I don't really care for Michelle's skating. Now Sasha has her own formulaic movements in terms of her spirals and Russian split jumps but her movements go with the music. The Russian jumps goes with punctuation of the music; her hand movements are timed with the music; her toes and extension seem to follow the crest of the music. I understand that there are only so many movements a skater can do, but some skaters seem to skate to their music a lot better than others. Like Lambiel verses Plushenko.

Fans may love Michelle for her consistency and constant presence on the competitive circuit; they may love her because she always looks happy skating out there; they may even love her because she always wins; but she is not a musical skater and never will be. She just executes what she is told and she does it well enough to land the all important jumps.

I have to disagree with this assessment of Michelle. Certainly she makes sure that she lands the jumps, but it does not mean she has no musicality. I don't feel she is as natural as e.g. Oksana Baiul, but she has really matured in her musical interpretation. The only program I don't care for is Bolero, where she appeared almost mechanical, but almost all her programs show great sensitivity to the music she is skating to. They are finesse type things and not a 'look at me' type flexibility-showcasing moves. For example, her COE spiral is very expressive. She is right on the music when she does the falling leaf, which is very difficult to do with the music.

Having said that, I am one of those who felt that Scheherazade was not as good a program for Michelle as many of her other programs. That is only relatively speaking though. Michelle had said that she wanted to interpret a character, but I wish she had just focused on interpreting the music. I loved her interpretation of Aranjuez and Tosca, so this is not just a case of 'missing Lori Nichols'. I truly wish that she had stayed with the Frank-Carroll & Loir Nichols team in the 2002 season. Scheherazade made her just a bit beatable.

Vash
 

MKFSfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Vash-you said it very well. I feel I get too defensive, but your post is great! Love this part:

Vash01 said:
but almost all her programs show great sensitivity to the music she is skating to. They are finesse type things and not a 'look at me' type flexibility-showcasing moves. For example, her COE spiral is very expressive. She is right on the music when she does the falling leaf, which is very difficult to do with the music.
:clap:
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Soogar - I can't help but disagree with your saying Michelle is not musical. Before the injuries she was definitely with the tempo of the music constantly. Check out your tape on 2003 Worlds, and this was not Lori Nichols.

Sticking your leg up in the air to the swells of music does not make one musical, and it is quite easy to do. Nutcracker pas de deux is full of swells but where does the tempo change? (Much prefer two skaters relating to each other for Nutcracker - makes sense.) I'm not impressed with a solo skater Pretty much Rota's music is the same having only one theme without variation and tempo Prokofiev is much better but difficult for a skater.. . Any skater whose biggest trick is to show flexibility (nothing to do with blade to ice) is not necessarily a musical skater including MK.

Joe
 

Eeyora

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
I actually recall hearing it was Carroll who picked the music. If Michelle is not musical, Why do people get so emotional while watching her skate?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Vash - I think the choreo for Bolero (Dean) was probably a lot better than what we saw. There was much tweeking in that piece and it must have annoyed Dean. What we got was a watered down version of a loopless Kwan. At that point in time I believe the pain of the hips were at a peak.

However, MK did keep to the music.

Joe
 

MKFSfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Joesitz said:
Vash - I think the choreo for Bolero (Dean) was probably a lot better than what we saw. There was much tweeking in that piece and it must have annoyed Dean. What we got was a watered down version of a loopless Kwan. At that point in time I believe the pain of the hips were at a peak.

However, MK did keep to the music.

Joe

Sources reported the 1st version of Bolero, Campbells Fall Cheesfest, contained the most Dean choreo. It was a beautiful program, very "dance-y" but empty in terms of COP friendly elements. I personally liked that version best, I thought there was more passion and musicality to that version of the program (not compared to ALL MK programs, but compared to other Bolero attempts).
 

JonnyCoop

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2003
Speaking for myself, I didn't HATE Scheherezade as much as I was DISAPPOINTED in it. I was excited at the prospect of seeing it, since I thought it would be a perfect match between skater and music -- but I just found it rather ordinary. With most of her previous long programs, you knew that no one else in the world could possibly have skated to the music she chose the way she did; with "Scheherezade", to me, there wasn't overall anything there that was really out of the ordinary; 3 or 4 other ladies out there could probably have done it just as well. And for them, it would have probably been a career highlight. For Michelle, more was expected. It can be a double-edged sword, having all those great classic programs to her credit; after a while, the expectation level can become perhaps a little too high.
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
MKFSfan said:
Sources reported the 1st version of Bolero, Campbells Fall Cheesfest, contained the most Dean choreo. It was a beautiful program, very "dance-y" but empty in terms of COP friendly elements. I personally liked that version best, I thought there was more passion and musicality to that version of the program (not compared to ALL MK programs, but compared to other Bolero attempts).

I liked that version of Bolero. Of course I had expected it to evolve and get even better with time, but it regressed, so I think Joe's assessment (about the injury) must be correct.

Vash
 

nymkfan51

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I actually liked Scheherazade quite a bit. The real problem wasn't with it, but with the fact that Michelle wasn't ever happy that season, and it showed. Even with her unhappiness though, had she not fallen on that flip and won the Olys ... almost nobody would be looking at Schez as a negative thing now. JMHO, of course. ;)
 
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Eeyora

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
Vash01 said:
I liked that version of Bolero. Of course I had expected it to evolve and get even better with time, but it regressed, so I think Joe's assessment (about the injury) must be correct.

Vash

As did I but in the end it was more pleasant to watch than a competitive program. I also liked it when I saw her use it during COI in Boston. It think it was more of an exhibition number or an Interpritive program.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
I liked Scheherazade. When it was skated extremely well like the 02 Nationals, 02 Worlds, and even 02 GP final(even with the fall at the last moments of the program)it was a beautiful piece and really build to the end.
 

MKFSfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Eeyora said:
As did I but in the end it was more pleasant to watch than a competitive program. I also liked it when I saw her use it during COI in Boston. It think it was more of an exhibition number or an Interpritive program.

I agree-I loved when she did the 2 footwork sections and I loved the ending pose! I know she probably kept Bolero in the beginning of COI because of the last Cheesefest and to put TUTBMP togther, but I'm glad she was able to sort of skate that program more closer to it's potential.
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
nymkfan51 said:
I actually liked Scheherazade quite a bit. The real problem wasn't with it, but with the fact that Michelle wasn't ever happy that season, and it showed. Even with her unhappiness though, had she not fallen on that flip and won the Olys ... almost nobody would be looking at Schez as a negative thing now. JMHO, of course. ;)

I agree 100% with you. MK was not happy that whole seaon.
 
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