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Thread: Why do people look to junior events for clues?

  1. #16
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    I agree with those who say it's the quality of skating, not the placements, that we look at when we look at juniors.

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    In the short program Lambiel skated cleanly with the same jumps as Lysacek and was placed behind him. That would never happen without cheating sorry, imagine at a senior event Lysacek and Lambiel ever skating cleanly with the same jumps and Lysacek coming out ahead, ROTFL!! I would be my house on that never happening in a SENIOR event, where some semblance of real judging occurs, rather then mommies and coaches deciding results, as anybody who has read insider books of people involved in juniors events would get a sense of just from reading the books. Weir blew a jump in the short, and still won the short too, he had a harder jump combo though. Basicaly in a senior event Lambiel would have won the short easily since he would never lose to Lysacek if both skated cleanly with the same jumps in a SENIOR judged event, or Weir missing a jump even with a harder jump combo.

    Szewcenko World bronze medalist in 94 placing below Kwan barely top 10 at the same Worlds, Slutskaya who wouldnt have been top 10 had she been at the 94 Worlds, and Czako out of top 10at the 94 Worlds says it all as well. Szewcenko's senior results showed she would be judged far above those 3 with the same performances she did at junior Worlds, so obviously the cheating of mommies and coaches that goes on at World juniors to explain the outrageous judging was on display. I am a Slutskaya fan too so that is not bias in anyway, I am not even a Szewcenko fan, just the fact is it was ridiculous.
    Last edited by slutskayafan21; 06-03-2006 at 01:46 PM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    I'm sorry but the change in the junior skaters when they move up to seniors is so blatant - look at teh difference between Tara's first year at senior worlds compared to her second year - the changes, certainyl in presentation were marked, and she'd upped the technical ante.

    Same with Michelle in her first year compared to second and most notable third year in seniors, they change could easily be the maturing of the skater plus the fact that the emphasis in juniors tends to be on the getting the technical required for seniors and then once you get to the to pechelons of seniors its the polish and presntation skills that are emphasised (assuming you have the tech).

    Ant
    I didnt say her junior skating was anywhere near her senior skating, I said it was better than the Russian ladies, especialy the bottom 2 who beat her. Believe me Pingacheva and Kanaeva did not look "very senior" and Tara badly outjumped them in the long program.
    Last edited by slutskayafan21; 06-03-2006 at 02:06 PM.

  4. #19
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    Slutskayafan, it's clear that you prefer Lambiel to Lysacek, but that doesn't mean that there's "obviously" evidence of cheating. I didn't see the events you mentioned, but the judges that do Jr. Worlds come from the same international pool as the judges at Sr. competitions do. Anyhow, even if the wrong skaters *are* rewarded at junior events, and I'm not sure they are, that doesn't mean that fans shouldn't look to the junior events to discover the rising stars.

  5. #20
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    Sorry but anytime Lambiel and Lysacek would do programs with the same jumps and the panel would put Lysacek ahead it obviously was a junior event with judges cheating. Lambiel was 4th at the 2002 Europeans only a year later, even without a triple axel or quad, but then again that was in front of senior judges who judge skating and not what they were told by mommy, papa, and coaches of skaters. Lysacek does not do a single thing better, jumps, spins, footwork, artistry, skating skills, nothing. Also Weir missing a jump in the short and being over both, even though he did do a harder combination, would never happen in a senior event.

    Anyway the clincher of it all is Szewcenko medaling at Senior Worlds the same year(94) she did not medal at Junior Worlds with the same performance basicaly, while Kwan with a slightly weaker performance then the one that she placed 8th in the Senior Worlds long program with easily winning the gold. Czako who finished out of the top 10 at Senior Worlds that year winning silver with 3 clean triples, while eventual World bronze medalist Szewcenko wins no medal with 5(the same she landed to win World bronze with the same program). Pleassee. Junior baloney, nothing more. I am not even a Szewcenko fan either, but I am not blind. Szewcenko's
    coach looked furious in the kiss-or-cry when her long program scores were coming up.

    Anyone who half believes junior events are anymore then mommies and daddies and coaches making up the results are very naive. Former skaters who write books speak of their days in the juniors and speak of this. I could quote from some of these books if anybody would like.

    Also would like to add funny how the Russian women who swept the 96 world juniors podium were never heard from again.
    Last edited by slutskayafan21; 06-03-2006 at 04:38 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21

    Anyone who half believes junior events are anymore then mommies and daddies and coaches making up the results are delusional.
    Anyone who reads a post of yours and expects it to be unbiased and make sense is delusional. Ugh, time to update the ignore list.

  7. #22
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    Some skating fans (myself included) enjoy watching the levels below senior, preferably in person at club competitions and at Regionals/Sectionals/Nationals/Junior Grand Prix/Junior Worlds, because there are some really fine and talented skaters and skating performances, both with and without triple/quad jumps, that aren't televised. It is a fact that the majority of competitive skaters in the U.S. will never make it to Nationals or even to the senior level (due to burnout, injury, change of focus/interest, finances, etc.), and will usually reach their skating peak at the lower levels. I find it satisfying as a fan to follow young skaters' progress from the lower levels and it's just icing on the cake if he/she/teams succeed in qualifying for Nationals and beyond.

    For example, I think I first saw Kimmie Meissner compete at the Intermediate level in 2001 and noticed her talent even though she didn't qualify out of Regionals to Nationals that year, and then I watched her come back strongly the following season to win the 2003 Novice National title. Now look what she's achieved just 3 years later! Another good example is Emily Hughes. I first saw her compete in the fall of 2000 when she was a young Novice with a bad flutz and underrotated triples. However, she had the same smile and joy in her skating back then, and I was impressed when she fixed her flutz and the rest of her jumps over time. I never thought that Emily could have made the 2006 Olympic team based on what I saw of her skating in the period between 2000-2003. But that's the unpredictability of skating -- the improvement curve and progression rate of young skaters can vary greatly from skater to skater and from year to year. And that's why I don't like to make public predictions based solely on competition results at the lower levels.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 06-04-2006 at 12:51 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    Sorry but anytime Lambiel and Lysacek would do programs with the same jumps and the panel would put Lysacek ahead it obviously was a junior event with judges cheating. Lambiel was 4th at the 2002 Europeans only a year later, even without a triple axel or quad, but then again that was in front of senior judges who judge skating and not what they were told by mommy, papa, and coaches of skaters. Lysacek does not do a single thing better, jumps, spins, footwork, artistry, skating skills, nothing. Also Weir missing a jump in the short and being over both, even though he did do a harder combination, would never happen in a senior event.

    Also would like to add funny how the Russian women who swept the 96 world juniors podium were never heard from again.
    I find it interesting you would rant about "junior level judging" re. Lysacek and Lambiel given the fact that any sampling of your posts on various subjects (which often seem to come around to this point) also implies strongly a pro-Lysacek, anti-Lambiel bias on the SENIOR level as well. No mommies, papas, and coaches having a hand in it there, one would assume....

    regarding the young Russian ladies: at the time of their podium sweep, Russia had a pretty solid senior block of Slutskaya, Butrskaya, and Markova, then Sokolova emerged soon after; this is the team they sent to Euros and Worlds for years. Ivanova, Kaneava, and Pingacheva couldn't get past this block at their young ages, and for whatever reason were unable to wait it out for a slot to open at Euros and Worlds. Bad timing. I'll bet Russia, given the depth problem they have now, would love to have any of those ladies around now. And there's a whole list of Junior Worlds ladies medallists, from various countries, for various reasons, were never heard from again.

  9. #24
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    I think people look for potential when they watch the junior level skaters. Many junior worlds medallists have gone on to win medals at worlds and Olympics. Sometimes they are not successful past the junior level, but that percentage has to be relatively low. It is like scouts from pro (e.g. NFL) teams watching college players to see who could develop into successful NFL players for their teams. They are not always successful in who they pick, but it is a good place to find out talent, in a competition environment. Of course we are not recruiting for any pro team, but I am sure the powers in their home countries are watching the junior level skaters very carefully. I watch them just to see if there are any possible future stars in them. When I watched Kimmie, Miki and Mao I thought they all had potential. I was not sure about Katy Taylor and Mai Asada (Mao's sister). I could be wrong about Katy. I am not sure Mai will make the Japanese world team.

    Vash

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonnyCoop
    I find it interesting you would rant about "junior level judging" re. Lysacek and Lambiel given the fact that any sampling of your posts on various subjects (which often seem to come around to this point) also implies strongly a pro-Lysacek, anti-Lambiel bias on the SENIOR level as well. No mommies, papas, and coaches having a hand in it there, one would assume....

    Like I said senior judging is not perfect but atleast it has some semblance of credability and is not just mommies, daddies, and coaches making up the results in group gatherings with coaches in the stands.

    regarding the young Russian ladies: at the time of their podium sweep, Russia had a pretty solid senior block of Slutskaya, Butrskaya, and Markova, then Sokolova emerged soon after; this is the team they sent to Euros and Worlds for years. Ivanova, Kaneava, and Pingacheva couldn't get past this block at their young ages, and for whatever reason were unable to wait it out for a slot to open at Euros and Worlds. Bad timing. I'll bet Russia, given the depth problem they have now, would love to have any of those ladies around now. And there's a whole list of Junior Worlds ladies medallists, from various countries, for various reasons, were never heard from again.
    Intersting how Tara Lipinski though blew by the same Slutskaya and Butyrskaya, you know the Tara that was 4th in the World junior long program even landing all her difficult jumps.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    I think people look for potential when they watch the junior level skaters. Many junior worlds medallists have gone on to win medals at worlds and Olympics. Sometimes they are not successful past the junior level, but that percentage has to be relatively low. It is like scouts from pro (e.g. NFL) teams watching college players to see who could develop into successful NFL players for their teams. They are not always successful in who they pick, but it is a good place to find out talent, in a competition environment. Of course we are not recruiting for any pro team, but I am sure the powers in their home countries are watching the junior level skaters very carefully. I watch them just to see if there are any possible future stars in them. When I watched Kimmie, Miki and Mao I thought they all had potential. I was not sure about Katy Taylor and Mai Asada (Mao's sister). I could be wrong about Katy. I am not sure Mai will make the Japanese world team.

    Vash
    One of us should try making a list of how many World junior winners have gone on to do NOTHING, and how many future champions have never medaled at World juniors. It wouldnt be near the minority you might think.

    As for the football example I agree mostly, but just for the record did you know Tom Brady was taken in the 6th round.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    One of us should try making a list of how many World junior winners have gone on to do NOTHING, and how many future champions have never medaled at World juniors.
    Is that surprising? Juniors are boys and girls, not men and women. They aren't just mini-copies of their future selves--growing up changes them for better or worse. Not every girl who jumps well as a girl will jump well as a woman.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by debdelilah
    Is that surprising? Juniors are boys and girls, not men and women. They aren't just mini-copies of their future selves--growing up changes them for better or worse. Not every girl who jumps well as a girl will jump well as a woman.
    I am not talking about just "girls", I am talking about all 4 events. For the record though girls judging at the world juniors is probably the worst of all 4 events, and that is saying alot considering how bad the other 3 are.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21



    Intersting how Tara Lipinski though blew by the same Slutskaya and Butyrskaya, you know the Tara that was 4th in the World junior long program even landing all her difficult jumps.
    I don't think the fact that she did this 1 or 2 seasons AFTER finishing behind Ivanova, Pingacheva, and Kanaeva proves much of anything; a skater that young can mature a lot in one year.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonnyCoop
    I don't think the fact that she did this 1 or 2 seasons AFTER finishing behind Ivanova, Pingacheva, and Kanaeva proves much of anything; a skater that young can mature a lot in one year.
    Either way did you see the 96 world juniors for ladies? If you did you would see that Tara should have atleast beaten Pingacheva and Kanaeva in the long program portion anyway, it was blatantly obvious, and I would bet my house that in front of a senior panel that would have happened. Just like I would bet my house that a senior panel would have judged the 94 ladies differently where eventual World senior bronze medalist took 4th at World juniors with basicaly the same performances she did at Senior Worlds, the 2001 mens short program differently, and the pairs event in 2004 differently. The worst senior judging cant come up to the average junior judging in incompetence but because they are junior events and no matter really cares they get away with it.
    Last edited by slutskayafan21; 06-04-2006 at 02:03 PM.

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