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Thread: Why do people look to junior events for clues?

  1. #46
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    I do feel I am right on things until somebody convinces me how I am wrong on something, yes that is true.

  2. #47
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    I think it is more incumbent on a poster to support an opinion than to assert that one is right until proven wrong. That's why I like to present facts to bolster an opinion whenever possible.

    Saying "A" is better than "B" because of what you saw at an event that happened 5 years ago is pure opinion. Saying a US/French conspiracy was in effect to put Weir, Lysacek and Restencourt (who had won two previous JW medals) on the JW podium in 2001 is spurious unless you can provide links to the taped performances and the scores with judges' identities.

    Lambiel doesn't blow me away, that's an opinion. Lambiel has problems with jumps, that's a fact that can be proven by CoP protocols. That Slutskaya unfairly won the 2001-2002 GPF final FS with an abysmal 4-triple performance can be proven by tapes of her performance vs. Kwan's (6 triple) and Hughes's (7 triple), compared to the scores given by certain judges on the panel.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    I have read books from former skaters and former judges(although mostly disgrunted judges who write a book) who speak of it happening when referring back to junior days or junior events. I doubt they make it up, and watching how the junior events are judged on TV it becomes believable to me as well.
    Toller Cranston's written books but i don't think i'd bet my house on the truth of his statements...an entertaining read they are but a substantial truthful account of events...they certainly are not.

    I still want to know how one parent or coach can get a majority of an international panel of judges to give their child the win? Any accounts you want to relay from the books you've read?

    Ant

  4. #49
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    Really so an example like Tonya Szewcenko coming 4th at Junior Worlds with the same performances(I saw both events, they were almost identicle skates)that she managed 3rd at the Senior Worlds, would be due to maturing as a skater? Sorry the events were only 3 months apart, and the month before that Szewcenko had won Nations Cup over World Champion Biaul. None of her Senior performances all year jibe with her landing all her jumps cleanly in the short, 5 of her 6 triples cleanly in the long and being beaten badly by Kwan, Czako(who landed only 3 triples in the long, and is only a jumper), and Slutskaya, that year.
    Why on earth would her placement in a competition have to be the same for the same performance...correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't she up against a different set of skaters at Senior Worlds than she was at Junior Worlds? So it then becomes an assessment of how the competition skated - again a matter of your opinion - you seem to think there's some dubious judging but still haven't presneted any fact sot substantiate your claim.

    Ant

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    Why on earth would her placement in a competition have to be the same for the same performance...correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't she up against a different set of skaters at Senior Worlds than she was at Junior Worlds? So it then becomes an assessment of how the competition skated - again a matter of your opinion - you seem to think there's some dubious judging but still haven't presneted any fact sot substantiate your claim.Ant
    Yeah, man. I would even go so far as to say that in the same event, if there were 15 different judges and Callers acting on the skaters, there would be different results. I believe each judge has his own private criteria, and two sets of judges and officil panels would produce two sets of results - not necessarily the winner but toally different in the other placements.

    Joe

  6. #51
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    OK, slutskayafan, you want to be proved wrong? You got it!

    Slutskayafan21:
    2001 World juniors-This was the year the French and U.S formed block judging to put Weir, Lysacek, and Restancourt on the podium and keep Lambiel and the other contenders off the podium no matter how they skated.”

    In the short program Lambiel skated cleanly with the same jumps as Lysacek and was placed behind him. That would never happen without cheating sorry, imagine at a senior event Lysacek and Lambiel ever skating cleanly with the same jumps and Lysacek coming out ahead, ROTFL!! I would be my house on that never happening in a SENIOR event, where some semblance of real judging occurs, rather then mommies and coaches deciding results, as anybody who has read insider books of people involved in juniors events would get a sense of just from reading the books. Weir blew a jump in the short, and still won the short too, he had a harder jump combo though. Basicaly in a senior event Lambiel would have won the short easily since he would never lose to Lysacek if both skated cleanly with the same jumps in a SENIOR judged event, or Weir missing a jump even with a harder jump combo.”

    First of all, a World Junior competition consists of three segments: QR, SP and FS. At Worlds 2001, Weir, Lysacek, Restencourt and Lambiel all skated in the same QR. Lambiel finished 4th in the QR, which was consistent with his 7th place in the FS. Here were the placements (QR, SP, FS) of the top 5 men:

    1, 1, 1 (2.0) WEIR
    3, 2, 3 (5.4) LYSACEK
    2, 6, 2 (6.4) RESTENCOURT
    1, 4, 5 (7.8) MA
    4, 3, 7 (10.4) LAMBIEL

    Here were the marks and Ordinals for the SP:

    #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9
    5.4 5.0 5.3 5.1 4.9 5.2 5.0 5.1 4.8 1-WEIR
    5.6 5.3 5.7 5.4 5.5 5.6 5.5 5.5 5.5
    1 3 1 2 1 2 1 1 3

    5.3 5.3 5.2 5.2 5.0 5.3 5.1 4.9 5.0 2-LYSACEK
    5.3 5.2 5.5 5.3 5.0 5.4 5.2 5.0 5.3
    3 1 2 1 2 3 2 5 2

    5.3 5.2 5.2 4.8 4.9 5.3 5.0 5.2 5.1 3-LAMBIEL
    5.5 5.2 5.4 5.0 5.1 5.5 5.2 5.2 5.4
    2 2 4 5 3 1 4 2 1

    5.2 4.8 5.3 4.9 4.7 4.8 4.9 4.8 5.0 6-RESTENCOURT
    5.1 4.9 5.3 5.1 4.4 4.8 5.3 4.7 4.9
    5 6 3 4 7 8 5 8 6


    Judges:
    1-Zonneyken BEL
    2- Paul GER
    3-Baseilhac FRA
    4-Babenko RUS
    5-Velchev BUL
    6-Betsch GBR
    7-Bogdanova AZE
    8-Ryan AUS
    9-Kurri FIN

    US/French alliance? How? There was NO US judge on the panel. The referee and assistant referee for the SP were Swedish and Croatian, respectively. Furthermore, Judge #6, Francis Betsch (who judged for Great Britain at the time, but became a French judge shortly thereafter) was one of only two judges to place Lambiel first in the SP. The judges who placed Lambiel 4th, 5th and 4th, which kept him in 3rd in the SP, were from France, Russia and Azerbaijan. Restencourt received a 3rd place from the French judge, a 4th place from the Russian judge, and a 5th place from the Azerbaijani judge. You can point to a Russian/French connection, perhaps, but leave the US out of it. Therefore, it cannot be argued that Weir and Lysacek received their placements in the SP due to positive bias on their behalf.

    The FS (with the same judging panel, in the same order):

    #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9
    5.4 5.3 5.3 5.4 5.2 5.6 5.3 5.4 5.7 1-WEIR
    5.3 5.5 5.7 5.7 5.4 5.7 5.4 5.4 5.7
    3 1 2 1 3 1 2 1 1

    5.6 5.4 5.6 5.5 5.3 5.6 5.4 5.4 5.8 2-RESTENCOURT
    5.4 5.1 5.6 5.4 5.2 5.4 5.4 5.2 5.4
    2 4 1 2 4 2 1 2 2

    5.5 5.3 5.1 5.2 5.3 5.3 5.1 5.2 5.5 3-LYSACEK
    5.5 5.2 5.0 5.4 5.4 5.2 5.3 5.3 5.5
    1 3 6 3 2 5 4 4 3

    5.2 5.1 4.8 5.1 5.1 5.3 5.0 5.1 4.9 4-BUTTLE
    5.4 5.1 5.2 5.2 5.2 5.4 5.2 5.4 5.2
    4 6 7 6 5 4 6 3 9

    5.6 5.5 5.4 5.4 5.3 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.6 5-MA
    5.0 5.1 5.0 4.9 4.9 5.0 5.2 5.0 5.1
    5 2 5 7 6 6 3 5 5

    5.2 5.1 5.0 4.8 4.8 5.0 4.7 5.2 5.3 7-LAMBIEL
    5.2 5.2 5.5 5.4 5.2 5.3 5.1 5.2 5.4
    7 5 3 8 8 7 9 7 4


    Interesting----the FRENCH judge placed Lambiel 3rd and Lysacek 6th---no pro-US bias there. It’s hard to point out any particular bias, except that the French and Finnish judges placed Lambiel significantly higher than any of the other judges. My guess is that Weir, Restencourt and Lysacek simply skated very, very well in the FS, as reflected by the placements of the majority of the judges.

    For those who want to see the full results, here is the link:

    http://www.icecalc.com/events/wjc200...s/CAT041RS.HTM

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    Why on earth would her placement in a competition have to be the same for the same performance...correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't she up against a different set of skaters at Senior Worlds than she was at Junior Worlds? So it then becomes an assessment of how the competition skated - again a matter of your opinion - you seem to think there's some dubious judging but still haven't presneted any fact sot substantiate your claim.

    Ant
    So you are suggesting that junior Worlds had a tougher field than Senior Worlds. I cant believe somebody is trying to argue that a Junior Worlds might be a tougher event then Senior Worlds in the same year, that really takes the cake. For the record both Kwan and Czako who finished 1-2 at the World juniors, which Szewcenko was 4th at skated at the 94 Worlds. Kwan fell in the short and was 11th in the short, but was only 8th in the long with a slightly better long then she had at World juniors. Czako skated the same short and a much better long(5 triples landed to 3 at World juniors)then she had at World juniors) and finished only 12th. Szewcenko skated exactly the same as she did at World juniors in both the short and long to win the bronze(would have been 4th without Chouinard's meltdown, still in a different league then Kwan or Czako at that event).

    If that is not obvious enough to you nothing will be, but to me it is 4 times more then is needed.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm
    OK, slutskayafan, you want to be proved wrong? You got it!

    Slutskayafan21:
    2001 World juniors-This was the year the French and U.S formed block judging to put Weir, Lysacek, and Restancourt on the podium and keep Lambiel and the other contenders off the podium no matter how they skated.”

    In the short program Lambiel skated cleanly with the same jumps as Lysacek and was placed behind him. That would never happen without cheating sorry, imagine at a senior event Lysacek and Lambiel ever skating cleanly with the same jumps and Lysacek coming out ahead, ROTFL!! I would be my house on that never happening in a SENIOR event, where some semblance of real judging occurs, rather then mommies and coaches deciding results, as anybody who has read insider books of people involved in juniors events would get a sense of just from reading the books. Weir blew a jump in the short, and still won the short too, he had a harder jump combo though. Basicaly in a senior event Lambiel would have won the short easily since he would never lose to Lysacek if both skated cleanly with the same jumps in a SENIOR judged event, or Weir missing a jump even with a harder jump combo.”

    First of all, a World Junior competition consists of three segments: QR, SP and FS. At Worlds 2001, Weir, Lysacek, Restencourt and Lambiel all skated in the same QR. Lambiel finished 4th in the QR, which was consistent with his 7th place in the FS. Here were the placements (QR, SP, FS) of the top 5 men:

    1, 1, 1 (2.0) WEIR
    3, 2, 3 (5.4) LYSACEK
    2, 6, 2 (6.4) RESTENCOURT
    1, 4, 5 (7.8) MA
    4, 3, 7 (10.4) LAMBIEL

    Here were the marks and Ordinals for the SP:

    #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9
    5.4 5.0 5.3 5.1 4.9 5.2 5.0 5.1 4.8 1-WEIR
    5.6 5.3 5.7 5.4 5.5 5.6 5.5 5.5 5.5
    1 3 1 2 1 2 1 1 3

    5.3 5.3 5.2 5.2 5.0 5.3 5.1 4.9 5.0 2-LYSACEK
    5.3 5.2 5.5 5.3 5.0 5.4 5.2 5.0 5.3
    3 1 2 1 2 3 2 5 2

    5.3 5.2 5.2 4.8 4.9 5.3 5.0 5.2 5.1 3-LAMBIEL
    5.5 5.2 5.4 5.0 5.1 5.5 5.2 5.2 5.4
    2 2 4 5 3 1 4 2 1

    5.2 4.8 5.3 4.9 4.7 4.8 4.9 4.8 5.0 6-RESTENCOURT
    5.1 4.9 5.3 5.1 4.4 4.8 5.3 4.7 4.9
    5 6 3 4 7 8 5 8 6


    Judges:
    1-Zonneyken BEL
    2- Paul GER
    3-Baseilhac FRA
    4-Babenko RUS
    5-Velchev BUL
    6-Betsch GBR
    7-Bogdanova AZE
    8-Ryan AUS
    9-Kurri FIN

    US/French alliance? How? There was NO US judge on the panel. The referee and assistant referee for the SP were Swedish and Croatian, respectively. Furthermore, Judge #6, Francis Betsch (who judged for Great Britain at the time, but became a French judge shortly thereafter) was one of only two judges to place Lambiel first in the SP. The judges who placed Lambiel 4th, 5th and 4th, which kept him in 3rd in the SP, were from France, Russia and Azerbaijan. Restencourt received a 3rd place from the French judge, a 4th place from the Russian judge, and a 5th place from the Azerbaijani judge. You can point to a Russian/French connection, perhaps, but leave the US out of it. Therefore, it cannot be argued that Weir and Lysacek received their placements in the SP due to positive bias on their behalf.

    The FS (with the same judging panel, in the same order):

    #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9
    5.4 5.3 5.3 5.4 5.2 5.6 5.3 5.4 5.7 1-WEIR
    5.3 5.5 5.7 5.7 5.4 5.7 5.4 5.4 5.7
    3 1 2 1 3 1 2 1 1

    5.6 5.4 5.6 5.5 5.3 5.6 5.4 5.4 5.8 2-RESTENCOURT
    5.4 5.1 5.6 5.4 5.2 5.4 5.4 5.2 5.4
    2 4 1 2 4 2 1 2 2

    5.5 5.3 5.1 5.2 5.3 5.3 5.1 5.2 5.5 3-LYSACEK
    5.5 5.2 5.0 5.4 5.4 5.2 5.3 5.3 5.5
    1 3 6 3 2 5 4 4 3

    5.2 5.1 4.8 5.1 5.1 5.3 5.0 5.1 4.9 4-BUTTLE
    5.4 5.1 5.2 5.2 5.2 5.4 5.2 5.4 5.2
    4 6 7 6 5 4 6 3 9

    5.6 5.5 5.4 5.4 5.3 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.6 5-MA
    5.0 5.1 5.0 4.9 4.9 5.0 5.2 5.0 5.1
    5 2 5 7 6 6 3 5 5

    5.2 5.1 5.0 4.8 4.8 5.0 4.7 5.2 5.3 7-LAMBIEL
    5.2 5.2 5.5 5.4 5.2 5.3 5.1 5.2 5.4
    7 5 3 8 8 7 9 7 4


    Interesting----the FRENCH judge placed Lambiel 3rd and Lysacek 6th---no pro-US bias there. It’s hard to point out any particular bias, except that the French and Finnish judges placed Lambiel significantly higher than any of the other judges. My guess is that Weir, Restencourt and Lysacek simply skated very, very well in the FS, as reflected by the placements of the majority of the judges.

    For those who want to see the full results, here is the link:

    http://www.icecalc.com/events/wjc200...s/CAT041RS.HTM
    Fine I was wrong on the France-U.S alliance at the 2001 World juniors obviously. I had read in a book written by a former U.S judge where he spoke of France and American officials talking in the practices leading up to the competition at the 2001 World juniors, and how that was the sort of thing you did at junior events and it was common and accepted. The mens event is the only event that the two countries each had medal winning skaters so it seemed like the most likely one to me if that were the case. I dont believe France was in the mix in any other discipline that year.

    The same book also mentioned Tara's old coach being fired over a fallout when they were upset with the judging at the 96 World juniors, and Tara's own mom believing there was dealmaking against her daughter at that event that led to the Russian sweep, a year after she had come 4th at her first World juniors.
    Last edited by slutskayafan21; 06-05-2006 at 12:27 PM.

  9. #54
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    Here are the details for the QA:

    Judges:
    1-Domanska-SVK
    2-Ryan-AUS
    3-Paul-GER
    4-Balczko-HUN
    5-Velchev-BUL
    6-Babenko-RUS
    7-Kurri-FIN

    1 Johnny WEIR USA 0.4
    5.0 5.3 5.5 5.6 5.1 5.5 5.5 #6
    5.1 5.4 5.6 5.4 5.3 5.6 5.7
    4 1 1 1 3 1 1

    2 Vincent RESTENCOURT FRA 0.8
    5.4 5.3 5.6 5.3 5.5 5.3 5.4 #13
    5.1 4.9 5.4 5.5 5.4 5.2 5.4
    2 4 2 2 1 2 2

    3 Evan LYSACEK USA 1.2
    5.3 5.2 5.3 5.3 5.0 5.1 5.2 #18
    5.3 5.3 5.4 5.2 5.4 5.3 5.2
    1 2 4 3 2 3 4

    4 Stéphane LAMBIEL SUI 1.6
    4.9 4.7 5.3 4.9 4.7 4.8 5.2 #8
    5.0 4.8 5.5 4.9 4.5 5.0 5.3
    5 6 3 4 9 5 3

    Seems to me Weir and Lysacek had consistently good ordinals, for the most part, in all 3 phases of the competition. Restencourt had a bad SP, but his QA and FS ordinals were consistently good. Lambiel had the most inconsistent ordinals in all phases of the competition, and had a very rough FS. But it appears that the Finnish judge placed him high even when he did not skate well.

  10. #55
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    Lambiel's ordinals ranging so much in the short program makes me wonder if he had a jump that might have been two footed, and some judges deducted for it and others didnt. That often creates mixed ordinals in the short program for a skater(eg-Biaul at the 94 Olympics). I remember watching the event but it was awhile back and I dont have it on tape like some other events.

    In the free skates it is more common for ordinals to flucuate when a skater has had mistakes, and others have as well.

  11. #56
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    Slutskayafan, which were the books that you read by "disgruntled former judges" and the like?

  12. #57
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    I have books by Sophie Moniotte, Jon Jackson, and Toller Cranston, that all delve into the so-called controversies of the sport. There are others I have read but not purchased, but read through almost all the way at the local chapters.

  13. #58
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    I've only read one of those authors, but Jon Jackson certainly doesn't imply that cheating is limited to the junior levels. In fact, he points out that it is nearly pervasive at all levels.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    ... I had read in a book written by a former U.S judge where he spoke of France and American officials talking in the practices leading up to the competition at the 2001 World juniors, and how that was the sort of thing you did at junior events and it was common and accepted.

    The same book also mentioned Tara's old coach being fired over a fallout when they were upset with the judging at the 96 World juniors, and Tara's own mom believing there was dealmaking against her daughter at that event that led to the Russian sweep, a year after she had come 4th at her first World juniors.
    Oh, PLEASE! It is a normal occurrence for judges go to practices before both Junior and Senior events. That's one of the reasons some of the skaters tiff it up and wear fancy costumes at practices.

    And Mama Lipinski ALWAYS thought there were underhanded dealings when precious little Tara wasn't awarded a gold medal. And said so loudly to reporters.

  15. #60
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    I never heard much about Pat Lipinski or what she was like to be honest. Maybe if I was an American I would be more familiar with her and what she was like. Being a mother raising such a young girl on her own(I know they didnt live with Tara's dad while Tara was a top level competitor) at the top level of skating must have been a challenge though.

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