Why do people look to junior events for clues?

Pat Lipinski was the epitome of the stage mother from hell. She took any negative feedback from judges as an attack on her daughter. She criticized judges freely, made scathing remarks about other skaters' coaches, raked Tara's competitors over the coals and didn't hesitate to share her views with the press.

After the 2002 Olympics, the Olympians were invited to the White House, where one member of the team would present the president with a team jacket. The athletes voted to choose the one who would do the presentation. When they picked Kwan, Pat Lipinski made a scene, screaming that her daughter should have been selected.

chuckm said:

Pat Lipinski was the epitome of the stage mother from hell. She took any negative feedback from judges as an attack on her daughter. She criticized judges freely, made scathing remarks about other skaters' coaches, raked Tara's competitors over the coals and didn't hesitate to share her views with the press.

After the 2002 Olympics, the Olympians were invited to the White House, where one member of the team would present the president with a team jacket. The athletes voted to choose the one who would do the presentation. When they picked Kwan, Pat Lipinski made a scene, screaming that her daughter should have been selected.

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Wow, she sounds like a skating mom nightmare!! I had no idea there was any skating mom in the U.S that confrontational and difficult over the last decade.

Why do people look to juinor events for clues?
Because they love figure skating and are interested to see what some of the talented young skaters are doing. Why do you look to any event for clues? Why do you sound so paranoid all the time?

Those of us who follow the JGP and Junior Worlds would have picked up on Elene Gedevanishvili long before those who "discovered" her at Europeans this season.

13-year-old Elene was 7th at her first JGP event in Croatia in 2003. At 2004 Junior Worlds (her first), she was 12th. The following season, she was 12th at JGP France and 6th at JGP Ukraine, then moved up to 5th at 2005 JW, just behind Meissner and just ahead of Alissa Czisny. In the fall of 2005, Elene won bronze at JGP Slovakia and gold at JPG Estonia, thus qualifying for the JGPF, where she finished 7th.

Elene was 5th at 2006 Europeans and 10th at the Olympics---pretty darned good for a skater who had just turned 16 in January. Elene suffered an injury which kept her out of 2006 JW, and was 14th at 2006 Worlds.

A few miscellaneous comments:

First, wow, this thread like DOUBLED in size since last time I looked at it this morning...

Second -- I think it is CONCEIVABLE, that from a technical standpoint, at least, a Jr Worlds can actually be more difficult than a Sr. Worlds. After all, what gets one to the juniors quickest? Jump revolutions and lots of them!! Certainly, I don't think artistry is much of a factor at the junior level -- tho, before someone jumps on me about that, I will say the overall quality of artistry among juniors has gotten much better over the last 10 years. Also, taking into consideration the fact that the "jumping bar" seems to raise every 4 years or so, and it seems to often filter up from the junior levels, it makes sense that a young junior jumping sensation would be able to do better against many seniors than she would against other junior jumping sensations at the junior level. (It of course helps if said junior jumping sensation is from a country that doesn't have a lot of overall depth so she is able to go Sr. Worlds at that point in her career anyway). [And the reason I say "she" is because this seems to apply more to the Ladies, who peak earlier, jump wise, as a rule, than the Men do; also since the whole Lipinski vs. the Russian girls thing is one of the topics generated by this thread....] And when you throw into the mix the fact that many judges, if any on some panels, did not bother to lower the artistic mark that much from the technical even if it should have been (i.e, say they get a 5.7 TM mark, AI rarely went lower than 5.4; and I think a lot of us have seen Junior Skaters who should have been pulling the 5.7 for TM but maybe a 4.9 for AI).... Yeah, I can see a Junior doing better against Seniors than Juniors, taking all that into consideration. If y'all follow any of this, because by now I've even confused myself, tho I know what I'm TRYING to say and will be more than glad to clarify for anyone who wishes to ask, What the **** are you TALKING about?????

Third -- Ugh. Pat Lipinski. The very mention of that woman.... UGH!! IMO, she created a spoiled little monster; her world revolved around Tara and woe betide ANYONE who did not automatically fall into orbit around the little planetoid. I think I would have liked Tara a lot better (needless to say, she is NOT one of my all-time favorites by any stretch) had it not been for the "You BETTER like her or ELSE" attitude generated by her entourage.

I actually agree with most of that. I sense that junior events are mostly just about jumps in the judging as well. They dont seem to judge artistry at junior events like they do senior. Of the top 4 women at the 94 World juniors Szewcenko was actually the most advanced artisticaly at that point by far of Kwan, herself, Slutskaya, and Czako(I know some of you would laugh at this looking at Kwan now, but remember this was in 94 I am talking about), had the best programs, the most maturity. However at junior Worlds the fact Irina and Michelle had triple lutzes in the long, and Czako did a triple-triple is probably what swayed the judges. Also quad and triple axel master Guo medaling twice in a row at World juniors in the mens(if you have ever seen him skate, he makes Chengiang Li look like the master of all around skating, his spins, footwork, basic skating, posture, and choreography, were pre-novice)is a real example of this.

It is very interesting for me to see more then one person refer to what an nutty and aggravating mom Pat Lipinski apparently was. I honestly had heard little about her in 96-98, she sounds like a total nightmare that everybody probably ducked in a corner as she was coming around.

I'm not sure, however, that the details of the "Olympic jacket at the White House" incident were exactly as reported at the time. The USOC said that the team had voted for who they wanted to award the jacket, and the winner of the poll was Picabo Street. When Street couldn't make it due to an injury, Michelle had the second most votes.

However, some of the athletes said afterwards that there was never any vote at all, the USOC just looked around the room and said, Oh there's Michelle, let's go with her.

Of all the bad press that Mrs. Lipinsky got (she is the villain of Christine Brennan's book, Edge of Glory, for instance), the one thing that I don't blame the Lipinsky camp for is thinking it was unfair that Michelle got more out of her silver than Tara got from winning gold.

MM

Tara probably hurt her market value by going pro so abruptly, also skipping Worlds with an iffy reason making some think she did not want to face Michelle again and risk taking some of the glow off her Oly win with a loss at Worlds. Those were some of my thoughts at the time to why her market value was not higher.

Still aside from that Michelle was always the more naturaly popular of the two, but I am not sure if there is much you can do about that. Michelle is just a special athlete, she is always a class act, is well spoken, refreshing in most of her conversations to the media, hardly ever makes a PR no-no, and knows how to mix graciousness with obvious competitive verve. It is hard to go up against that off the ice when you are that person's chief rival on the ice, even when you win something big over them. Plus now being enlightened to the terror Pat Lipinski seemed to be, that probably restrained the public's endearment to Tara as well.

slutskayafan21 said:

Tara probably hurt her market value by going pro so abruptly, also skipping Worlds with an iffy reason making some think she did not want to face Michelle again and risk taking some of the glow off her Oly win with a loss at Worlds. Those were some of my thoughts at the time to why her market value was not higher.

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As I recall, at the time the USFSA was positively salivating at a long term competitive rivalry between Tara and Michelle. They came out with a big post-Olympic picture book headlining Tara somewhat over Michelle (Tara got the cover). It is possible that Tara was even then feeling the effects of her chronic hip injuries and knew she would not be able to continue in competition.

The other "Pat Lipinski is a wicked witch" story (I don't know how much truth there is in it) is that Tara was very happy touring on COI in 1998. She made friends and felt that everyone on the tour liked her.

But then, mom decided that Tara could make more money with SOI. Tara was miserable with SOI (so the story goes), and did not fit in with the much older crowd (only Kurt Browning went out of his way to befriend her). So they say -- probably an exaggeration.

Well I would certainly hope that "wicked witch" story was an urban legend of some kind. I would hate to think a mother makes her 15-year old do a more lucrative tour just for more money, even against her own will.

You have to remember that Tara was only 15 when her mother persuaded her to sign with SOI. Tara was used to doing what her mother wanted, and she probably didn't realize until after she started the SOI tour that she was a square peg in a round hole there. By then she had cut all ties with COI and it was too late to go back.

I suspect that part of the reason why Pat Lipinski urged Tara to go with SOI was that in SOI, Tara would be the big star, while with COI , she would always have to share the ice with Kwan, and that was unacceptable (I saw the 1998 COI tour, and Kwan got MUCH more applause than Tara did).

slutskayafan21 said:

As for the football example I agree mostly, but just for the record did you know Tom Brady was taken in the 6th round.

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I did not know the draft details but I did know that before he won his first superbowl he was a virtual unknown. Draft picks are not always absolutely perfect. Joe Montana was not drafted until the 3rd round. There are examples like that, but there are also many very successful first round picks. We are only talking about probabilities in both cases (Jr. worlds and the NFL draft which I used as an example). I also suspect that the scoring system for the Juniors is different from Seniors (I don't mean COP vs. 6.0). What the judges look for could be different (I have not studied the rules to compare with each other, and I don't know for sure that they are different; I am just wondering).

Vash

slutskayafan21 said:

So you are suggesting that junior Worlds had a tougher field than Senior Worlds. I cant believe somebody is trying to argue that a Junior Worlds might be a tougher event then Senior Worlds in the same year, that really takes the cake. For the record both Kwan and Czako who finished 1-2 at the World juniors, which Szewcenko was 4th at skated at the 94 Worlds. Kwan fell in the short and was 11th in the short, but was only 8th in the long with a slightly better long then she had at World juniors. Czako skated the same short and a much better long(5 triples landed to 3 at World juniors)then she had at World juniors) and finished only 12th. Szewcenko skated exactly the same as she did at World juniors in both the short and long to win the bronze(would have been 4th without Chouinard's meltdown, still in a different league then Kwan or Czako at that event).

If that is not obvious enough to you nothing will be, but to me it is 4 times more then is needed.

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Laugh all you want - you tell me do you think last years Junior Worlds field was tougher than Senior worlds in the ladies?

And i can laugh long and hard since ChuckM has already shown that you rridiculous statements are easliy disproved!!

Ant

IcyBallerina said:

I've only read one of those authors, but Jon Jackson certainly doesn't imply that cheating is limited to the junior levels. In fact, he points out that it is nearly pervasive at all levels.

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And further more Cranston and Moniotte's books are written from a pretty bitter and nagry point of view - great fun reads but totally coloured by their own biases and beliefs.

Glad to see Slutskayafan's usual level of sensationalist commentary hasn't changed!

Ant

antmanb said:

Laugh all you want - you tell me do you think last years Junior Worlds field was tougher than Senior worlds in the ladies?

Ant

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Last year was not 1994, so what was last year has no relation to 1994. 1994 featured the World junior gold and silver medalists finishing 8th and 12th at Senior Worlds so that ridiculous suggestion already goes right out the window.

Tara had the one style of skating, very giddy and little girlish. She did that well. But in SOI, she could not come up to the other gals in looking sexy. I remember one act where she had a mop of hair; makeup for a tart which made her look like a little girl dressing up. And with her lack of edging skills had a tough time keeping up with the other gals' sensuous body language.

I think she would have fared better in COI where she could do the one style of skating that she did well.

Sad but the hip did get worse on tour. I believe her last number (at least the last one I saw) was some kind of tribute to America where she skated to a drum beat in a uniform the color of the Confederacy. Very limited and, no edging. Just a march.

Joe

slutskayafan21 said:

Last year was not 1994, so what was last year has no relation to 1994. 1994 featured the World junior gold and silver medalists finishing 8th and 12th at Senior Worlds so that ridiculous suggestion already goes right out the window.

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You said it was ridiculous to suggest that the field at junior worlds would be tougher than the field at senior worlds and i was merely asking what you thought about the last junior worlds compared to senior worlds, but you seem more hell bent on giving out half truths about one event 12 years ago.

And you've still not given any more detail about how you think the parent or coach of one skater could influence an entire panel of international judges to give their child a win.

Ant

slutskayafan, the 1994 JW gold medalist was all of 13 years old, and the only US skater to make it out of qualifying (Bobek didn't); an 8th place finish for her was simply phenomenal. In 1996, at the same age, Tara Lipinski was 5th at JW and 15th at Worlds.

Furthermore, Irina Slutskaya was 3rd at 1994 JW and didn't get to go to Worlds at all. Instead, Olga Markova went, and she finished 10th, behind Kwan. 15-year-old Irina went on to win 1995 JW and finished 7th at Worlds that year, also an extremely strong showing.

If you have a point, I don't know what it is.

chuckm said:

slutskayafan, the 1994 JW gold medalist was all of 13 years old, and the only US skater to make it out of qualifying (Bobek didn't); an 8th place finish for her was simply phenomenal. In 1996, at the same age, Tara Lipinski was 5th at JW and 15th at Worlds.

Furthermore, Irina Slutskaya was 3rd at 1994 JW and didn't get to go to Worlds at all. Instead, Olga Markova went, and she finished 10th, behind Kwan. 15-year-old Irina went on to win 1995 JW and finished 7th at Worlds that year, also an extremely strong showing.

If you have a point, I don't know what it is.

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The quite obvious point is that Szewcenko was 3RD at World seniors that year with the same performances almost exactly that she was judged only 4th at World juniors that year. Then you look at Kwan, the easy World junior winner being 8th at Senior Worlds, and Czako who was 2nd at World juniors that year by landing only 3 triples in the World junior long program coming 12th at the World Seniors with a much better free skate then the World juniors. If that point is not fairly obvious, then nothing would be. Talking about how remarkable Kwan did as a 13-year old in her World debuts(and I agree with that)is no way has anything to do with anything.

antmanb said:

You said it was ridiculous to suggest that the field at junior worlds would be tougher than the field at senior worlds and i was merely asking what you thought about the last junior worlds compared to senior worlds, but you seem more hell bent on giving out half truths about one event 12 years ago.

And you've still not given any more detail about how you think the parent or coach of one skater could influence an entire panel of international judges to give their child a win.

Ant

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Half truthes, I just stated exactly why the results of the 94 World juniors were ridiculous, you are the one attempting a ridiculous half truth by bringing up the World juniors this year in order to create some silly assumption that if the World juniors this year had as tough a field as seniors, that referring to the 94 event was not valid. Anycase I dont have to say anything more, anybody who does not the see the obviosness of the 94 example, simply refuses to believe something they dont want to believe since it could not be any more obvious.

I already told you as well how I believe a parent or coach can influence judges at junior events. Because many of the books I have read from former skaters and judges speak of it. Sonia Binachetti's "Cracked Ice" is another book that specifies it that I have read. Llyod Eisler spoke of it in his book(with Isabelle Brassuer)as well. If you choose to believe former skaters and judges just make up stories about junior skating because they are disgruntled, then go ahead in think that. After all you are the same person that does not see anything bizarre about a World bronze medalist coming 4th at World juniors the same year with identical performances, and the World junior silver medalist being 2nd at World juniors with much weaker free skate then the stronger one that gained her a 12th place at World Seniors.