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Thread: Biggest Judging errors in the past

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog
    The comment was not directed at you. Just to clarify...
    Sorry, I was just having fun, I should have just kept my "mouth shut."

    Anyway, after reading over this I am a little questionable about the Olys Sasha and Irina placements. Hum. This has been interesting.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog
    Didn't Nikodinov either medal or win one year at SA or something?
    Yes, indeed! She won the gold at Skate America 2004, with a total of 145.50 points, over Phaneuf, Ando, Poykio, Czisny, Liashenko, Ota and others.

    It was a strange competition, showing some of the vagaries of the then-new CoP. Angela got second in the short and second in the free. This put her substantially ahead of Ando, who won the short but fell to 6th in the free, and Poykio, who won the free skate but was so far behind after the short (8th) that she only finished 5th overall.

    MM

  3. #48
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    ok, I didn't imagine it then...I thought so. My mind has this way of playing tricks on me sometimes.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie
    Jenny should have won the LP in SA 2003? Wow. Um. Jenny, while she landed all her jumps, didn't have near the difficulty in her program that Sasha did.
    Well, the judges certainly agreed with you. They gave Sasha 197.35 points, the third highest total ever in the history of the CoP. (She got the second highest all-time total the next week at Skate Canada).

    But many people thought that Jenny at least should have won the long program. Jenny did seven triples including a triple toe/triple toe. She also did a triple flip/double toe. Plus, she got all positive GOEs.

    Sasha did two 3/2 combos, but no triple/triple, she did only six triples in all, and she flubbed her triple flip, taking a -1.40 GOE deduction.

    The majority of the audience also thought that Jenny attacked the program with more fire than Sasha did on that occasion.

    Where Sasha dominated was in the program component scores, where she beat Jenny by 8 points, in the opinion of the judges. In other words, even if Jenny had done an extra triple Axel (7.5 points), it wouldn't have helped. They still would have given it to Sasha for her pretty presentation.

    MM

  5. #50
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    In terms of worst actual JUDGING errors, how is it that it hasn't been brought up about this last season's Japanese nationals, where they crowned two different men's champions in a matter of hours?? I felt bad for both Oda and Takahashi on that one...

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Yes, indeed! She won the gold at Skate America 2004, with a total of 145.50 points, over Phaneuf, Ando, Poykio, Czisny, Liashenko, Ota and others.

    It was a strange competition, showing some of the vagaries of the then-new CoP. Angela got second in the short and second in the free. This put her substantially ahead of Ando, who won the short but fell to 6th in the free, and Poykio, who won the free skate but was so far behind after the short (8th) that she only finished 5th overall.

    MM
    By 2004 SA, CoP was in its second year for GP events, so the outcome shouldn't have been a surprise. I'm not sure why this would be vague. The skaters had a year of experience knowing that they could make up or lose a lot of ground between the SP and the LP.

    Under CoP, the standings were:

    Nikodinov
    Pfaneuf
    Ando
    Czisny
    Poykio
    Liashenko
    Ota

    Under 6.0, assuming the same placements, the standings would have been:

    Nikodinov (1+2=3)
    Pfaneuf (1.5+3=4.5)
    Poykio (4+1=5)
    Czisny (2.5+4=6.5, LP=tiebreak)
    Ando (.5+6=6.5)
    Liashenko (3+5=8)
    Ota (2.5+7=9.5)
    Last edited by hockeyfan228; 06-06-2006 at 07:52 PM.

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    I felt Todd Eldredge was robbed of beating Stojko two different years at the GP final, both 97 where Stojko won and Eldredge was second, and in 98 when Stojko was 2nd and Eldredge 3rd.

    In 1997 Stojko landed the first ever quad-triple, but fell on a triple axel late in the program, and stepped out of a triple loop; Eldredge did all 8 of his triples including 2 triple axels and 2 triple-triples clean. Eldredge had the better spins, footwork was very competitive, Stojko's Dragonheart program had so many stops and pauses as well while Eldredges had constant motion and ice coverage. Under COP I bet this would have been a blowout, but since it was the first ever quad-triple there was such fascination over it the result was a foregone conclusion.

    In 1998 Eldredge landed 7 triples in the long program, only doubling a triple loop. He had 2 triple axels and 2 triple-triples again. Stojko fell on his quad attempt, and landed 8 triples, including 2 triple axels, and 2 triple-triples, he had many very low landings though that he barely hung onto, he looked tired at this event overall. Stojko's choreography was more detailed and intricate then his 97 program by a long ways, but his overall performance was laboured and mechanical. I would have had Todd ahead here as well clearly.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasey
    In terms of worst actual JUDGING errors, how is it that it hasn't been brought up about this last season's Japanese nationals, where they crowned two different men's champions in a matter of hours?? I felt bad for both Oda and Takahashi on that one...
    That was not a judging error. Under CoP, the judges are instructed to mark all elements. The software that the Japanese Federation developed themselves to implement CoP at Japanese Nationals did not calculate Zayak infractions properly and counted those points. When the mistake was corrected in the scores, Takahashi was crowned champion, and rightly so according to the rules. (The ISU software captured each one of these errors all year, giving a value of zero to the element, despite the scores entered.)

    Other non-judging errors are referee errors, like the Torino referee who did not start the two-minute count for Zhang/Zhang until several minutes into her fall and injury, and controller/caller errors. But I think this thread focuses on judging errors only.
    Last edited by hockeyfan228; 06-06-2006 at 07:58 PM.

  9. #54
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    Didnt Oda also lose the bronze at Worlds due to points he lost by a jump combination being discounted because he violated the jump window boundaries?

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    Bad Decisions

    This is an interesting topic. As for Chen Lu, I honestly don't feel that she was cheated outright in Lillehammer. She was elegant and powerful, but she was not yet the total package she would become over the next two years. Additionally, I thought her LP that year did not suit her well. The music was dark, brooding, and monotomous. I much preferred the light, lyrical feel of her "Claire Delune" SP from the same year. Her spins were also never a strong element and the 1994 Olympics were no exception. So, I could see a case being made for a second place finish, but I don't think it was a scandalous result in terms of Chen Lu. Nancy vs. Oksana is a whole other can of worms I have learned is often better left tightly sealed in a skating forum. People just get plain nasty when that one comes up....

    Here are some examples of bad judging/decisions, IMO:
    1. 1992 Olympics, Men's LP - Petrenko's LP performance was mistake-laden, uninspired, and empty from a choreography standpoint. He started out strongly, but failed to keep up the momentum and hung on to that Gold medal by reputation alone, IMO. I thought Wylie was the best overall that night.

    2. 2002 Olympics, Ladies' LP - Irina had performed "Tosca" so well during the 01-02 season (particularly at the 01 GWG) and I had high hopes for Salt Lake City. Her SP was strong and vibrant. "Tosca" was flat and unimpressive at the 2002 Olympics. She must have been tremendously nervous and it showed. 5.8s-5.9s for that performance were astronomically high to me. 5.6-5.7 for both marks seemed much more appropriate...and a 3rd or 4th place finish in the LP.
    I thought everyone else was scored fairly.

    3. 2006 Olympics - Totmianina & Marinin were certainly the class of a S&Z-less field from 04-06. They improved, IMO, by leaps and bounds from 2003 and onward. BUT, their scores became more and more inflated after their Moscow World win. They were good and almost always better than the rest, but they were not as dominant or superior as their scores indicated. I do not dispute their victories one bit, but just because they are the best overall does not mean they deserve massive scores in every department.

    4. 1996/1998 Worlds, Tonia Kwiatkowski - Tonia was never a Kwan or Lipinski, but she was solid, elegant, and technically competent. She performed very well in the LP at the 96 and 98 Worlds. I thought she should have been several places higher at both competitions.

    5. 2002 Olympics, Ina & Zimmerman - I know the huge to-do was about the top two, but I felt I&Z more than deserved 4th place over a flat T&M. They skated two strong programs and only managed 5th. It is strange to think how things work out. They were subpar at Worlds the following month and managed to make the podium.

    6. 2002 GPF, Ladies Final - It has already been discussed, but I certainly did not understand Irina's scores. That title was most definitely a gift. Kwan and Hughes outskated her.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    By 2004 SA, CoP was in its second year for GP events, so the outcome shouldn't have been a surprise. I'm not sure why this would be vague. The skaters had a year of experience knowing that they could make up or lose a lot of ground between the SP and the LP.
    I didn't mean that there was anything vague about the CoP in 2004 (or in 2003 either, for that matter) -- just that for fans used to ordinal judging these huge swings seemed capricious and whimsical. There have been quite a number of events by now where someone was able to make up a lot of ground after falling behind in the short, so I guess we are getting used to it.

    MM

    PS. Was it Ronnie Robertson or Tim Woods who was deprived of an Olympic gold medal because of a judge's math error? IIRC the judge tried to correct it afterward, but it was too late.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-06-2006 at 08:48 PM.

  12. #57
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    There's no such thing as a 'judging error'.
    They know precisely what they're doing, and care not a whit whether anyone agrees with them.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    I didn't mean that there was anything vague about the CoP in 2004 (or in 2003 either, for that matter) -- just that for fans used to ordinal judging these huge swings seemed capricious and whimsical. There have been quite a number of events by now where someone was able to make up a lot of ground after falling behind in the short, so I guess we are getting used to it.

    MM

    PS. Was it Ronnie Robertson or Tim Woods who was deprived of an Olympic gold medal because of a judge's math error? IIRC the judge tried to correct it afterward, but it was too late.
    I believe it was Tim Wood. An article was posted lasst year about the whole debacle and it said that he still participating in national level adult competitions.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by BronzeisGolden

    3. 2006 Olympics - Totmianina & Marinin ...They were good and almost always better than the rest, but they were not as dominant or superior as their scores indicated. I do not dispute their victories one bit, but just because they are the best overall does not mean they deserve massive scores in every department.
    Have you seen them live in competition? I have for the last four years, and, in my opinion, with the exception of a few elements here and there they are several levels above Z/Z, Pang/Tong, S/S (whom I love), I/B, or O/S. I think the scores they had recognized their overall superiority over the competition, and they weren't so high that a healthy Shen/Zhao wouldn't have had a chance, in contrast to Plushenko, for example, who had a 2+ jump lead over his closest competitors after the SP.

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    Well Totmianina's/Marinin's PB for the short set at the 2005 Worlds is very close to the PB Shen/Zhou set for the short at the 2005 GP final. Totmianina/Marinin's PB for the long set at the 2006 Olympics is extremely close with the PB Shen/Zhou set for the long at that same 2005 GP final. That gives you a hint of how tantalizing the rivalry could have been these last two seasons if both teams had stayed fully healthy. I remember in the 02-03 and 03-04 seasons these two teams trading victories back and forth, it is too bad neither team could stay healthy simatenously for the 04-05 and 05-06 seasons to continue the evolution of their rivalry.

    I agree currenly though aside from the twist, and the overhead lifts Totmiana/Marinin are pretty clearly the class of the pack since Worlds last year. They get through those 2 of 8 elements in the short, 4 of 14 in the long respectable, dont garner huge points, and then pile up points with the other 70-75% of their elements, and their PCS scores.
    Last edited by slutskayafan21; 06-07-2006 at 05:28 AM.

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