Biggest Judging errors in the past

Jaana · Jun 8, 2006

MKFSfan said:
I do think skate order played a factor in both Michelle's 1996 and Tara's 1998 win, as well as emotions-Michelle in 1996 was so emotional and new-the whole"breath of fresh air", while I did love Lu Chen and thought she was amazing that night. Tara in 1998 was more energetic and exhuberant, with Michelle being a little more reserved (well, compared to 1998 Nats. and Tara that night) but both competitions were close, and could have easily gone the other way.

I don´t think the skate order played the factor in Kwan vs. Lipinski at Nagano Olympics. Also Ilia Kulik was the first to skate in final group, and he won. What mattered was how Kwan skated. I have no doubts that Kwan would have won, if she had skated the way she did at 1998 US Nationals. Lipinski benefitted from the skate order in that sense that she skated directly after Bonaly (refering to Brennan´s book, LOL).

slutskayafan21 · Jun 8, 2006

Lanie said:
HAHAHAHAHA. That's a great one. You do realize that Fumie didn't nearly have the levels in spins and spirals and footwork to compete with Sasha much less Irina? And I like Fumie - she just doesn't have all the difficulty the other girls do. Look at the protocol (that's what I love about CoP - wuzrobbing can be kicked in the butt by looking at at the TES in cases like this that aren't subjective). Thus she often gets shafted in the TES, and rightly so. Fumie even mentioned this at one point re: Torino. At the Olys IMO I would have put her ahead of Irina but not Sasha. She at least doesn't look like a mess out there on the ice like Irina does a lot of the time - Fumie's got nice carriage, though she seems kinda slow to me. Sasha's level 4s with +GoE and her PCS saved her butt, rightly so!

Sasha was undermarked in the SP and LP at 2002 Olympics, especially by the German judge who gave her 5.5/5.5 for her LP. The 5.5 I can kinda see in technical as I didn't see much of a footwork sequence, and the crash on the 3/3, but in presentation?! But I can understand why. She was generally an unknown. Wait your turn. Your reputation helps you just as much as your skate does a lot in 6.0 which is why I'm glad it's gone! I don't recall watching Fumie's SLC performances but I definitely think Kwan was overmarked, Hughes was a bit but they kinda had to as she was the only one to bring it, and Irina was overmarked, Sasha undermarked. I need to go see Fumie's performance, but I might agree with you that she was undermarked--she seemed to get shafted a lot under 6.0.

I hope I made some sense. I'm sleepy.

Yes I am aware Fumie had some lower levels but her GOE were stingy in both the short and long, and relative to the flawed performances of Cohen and Slutskaya her PCS were low as well. Cohen and Slutskaya both received generous PCS scores for their flawed free skates I felt, and Cohen received some generous GOE on some of her elements also, such as the straight +2s on her last footwork sequence, looking back on tape it was good but not mind bogglingly or anything.

As for 2002 I did not feel Cohen was undermarked overall really. The German judge was the low judge of course, but overall her 5.6-5.7s tech and 5.7s-5.8s pres. were about right. Her program had alot of plain stroking I found, her edge quality and basic skating were lacking compared to Kwan and Slutskaya at that point in her career, her second triple lutz looked two footed, of course the fall on the first triple lutz-triple toe as well. I agree Irina had some generous scores, and perhaps Kwan as well. I agreed with both being over Cohen though. Since only 1 judge had Cohen or Irina, and only 1 judge had Cohen over Kwan, the judges seemed pretty clear on this as well.

Zuranthium · Jun 8, 2006

Lanie said:
Regarding Katarina, I remember watching her Carmen for the first time a few years ago and going, "Uhh, that was it? That's the spectacular Carmen?" Course, I did that with Bolero a long time ago, but now I can appreciate it and T&D. Katarina and Carmen--not so much.

I thought her presentation was brilliant. She did double several jumps and only really deserved Silver, though. Midori Ito owned that Olympics. She had the best Short and Long Programs. Screw the school figures.

antmanb · Jun 8, 2006

Mathman said:
I don't think any of the modern controversies compares to some of the stuff that went on in the past.

Before 1908 the practice was for the host country to supply all the judges for the World Championship. I believe it was at the 1901 championships in Stockholm where the Russian champion came to town, took one look at the panel of Swedish judges, and turned around and went back home without skating. (Ulrich Salchow of Sweden won.)

In 1906, the world championship was in Munich, home town of Salchow's biggest rival, Gilbert Fuchs. Salchow refused to participate, knowing he didn't have a chance. (Sure enough, Fuchs won.)

At the 1908 Olympic Games (the first time figure skating was included), although the games were in London, the judging panel was heavily pro-Salchow and Fuchs refused to skate. (Salchow won.)

Salchow went on to become the president of the ISU, where he served for many years.

Fuchs, who also competed in gymnastics, weightlifting and "stone put" (a version of shot put poplular in Scotland), went on to have a career in forestry. He wrote a PhD thesis on the economic viability of the post-World War I European foresty industry, and was a specialist on various insects that harm trees.

(Trees rock!)

MM are you actually the font of all knowledge?! :bow:

Where do you get all this stuff from?!!

Ant

antmanb · Jun 8, 2006

Lanie said:
And I like Fumie - she just doesn't have all the difficulty the other girls do. Look at the protocol (that's what I love about CoP - wuzrobbing can be kicked in the butt by looking at at the TES in cases like this that aren't subjective).

Actually all of the TES are subjective because of the GOE - the judges are assigning the GOE on a totally subjective basis since the spread in marks can rang from -2 to +2 for the same element!

Ant

Mathman · Jun 8, 2006

Lanie said:
HAHAHAHAHA. That's a great one. You do realize that Fumie didn't nearly have the levels in spins and spirals and footwork to compete with Sasha much less Irina? And I like Fumie - she just doesn't have all the difficulty the other girls do. Look at the protocol...[

Sasha

CCoSp4 -- 3.5
LSp4 -- 2.4
FSSp3 -- 2.3
CCoSp4 -- 3.5

Total spins (base value) -- 11.7

Fumie

CCoSp4 -- 3.5
FCSp 3 -- 2.3
FSSp3 -- 2.3
CCoSp3 -- 3.0

Total spins -- 11.1

Sasha

CiSt2 -- 2.3
SpSt4 -- 3.4

Total step sequences -- 5.7

Fumie

SpSt3 -- 3.1
SlSt2 -- 2.3

Total step sequences -- 5.4

So Sasha outpointed Fumie by six tenths of a point on all four spins combined, and by three tenths of a point on footwork and spirals. Does that really warrant a HAHAHAHA?

Where Fumie lost the most ground to Sasha was in the program component scores. The judges thought -- so did I -- that Sasha skated very pretty, except for the three mistakes on jumps.

Actually, looking at the protocols, it is hard to find fault with how the judges scored Sasha's performance. She did skate an extraordinary program, minus the technical errors. On the three jumping elements (the triple Lutz, triple flip and the 3T+3S sequence) she was justly hammered -- she lost a total of 7.0 GOE points on those three elements.

Give her those 7 points back, and she is in a virtual tie with Shizuka (plus, her PCSs would have been even higher).

MM

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 8, 2006

Lanie - Are you a member of the 'One skater only' club?

Joe

Spirit · Jun 8, 2006

at Mathman's long post! It reminds me of some other stuff I've heard of, illustrating how differently sport does things today and how lax everything used to be. At the risk of getting off topic (and this is so much more fun, anyway):

During the Torino Olympics, NBC aired a special about the Italian bobsledders of the 50's and 60's, and it was interesting to hear them talk about blatant nationalism on the bobsled circuit. They related how the host country hadn't allowed them to walk the course, as was the custom, so they did it in secret at night and encountered the police.

During an important tennis match in Italy many decades ago, a man got upset when a shot from his opponent landed out but was not called. When the man looked at the line judge to ask him what was going on, he discovered the line judge with his back turned, buying an ice cream from a vendor in the stands. :laugh:

Then there was that 1972 Olympic basketball game.....

Spirit · Jun 8, 2006

Also (to get back to figure skating), I recall hearing about an incident during skating's early days, when an orchestra was needed to play the music because there was no technology for playing a recording of any kind.

For some reason, the orchestra's conductor played a pair's music at double speed, and absolutely refused to do it any differently! Needless to say, the pair was not pleased, but nothing was ever done about it.

Anyone else know the details of this? I get nothing on Google.

SeaniBu · Jun 8, 2006

Mathman said:
Sasha

...So Sasha outpointed Fumie by six tenths of a point on all four spins combined, and by three tenths of a point on footwork and spirals. Does that really warrant a HAHAHAHA?

Where Fumie lost the most ground to Sasha was in the program component scores. The judges thought -- so did I -- that Sasha skated very pretty, except for the three mistakes on jumps.
MM

MM, you are the the knowledge master. I don't know or care where you get your info, 'cause I can just look to you for the "truth." It must be the "simplistic reality" in math that makes things so clear when coming from you. Again I :bow:

Looking over this, I still feel the "lack of connecting with the international crowd" and that fact she still does not extend that well are issues that need to be overcome. But in my mind I felt that she was further back after the SP and slightly under scoured after the LP. But if she was scoured correctly than everyone else should have been, and that is where the biggest differences would have come in placement. Also thought she had pretty steady edges that week.

All said, if it was a matter of the judges looking at how well the skater represents their country and culture, Fumie would be "reckoned with" in artistic categories to a more threatening degree. Now if she could get that sit spin and extension a tad better we'll be looking at a 28 year old Olympic medalist for sure! IMO

Lanie · Jun 8, 2006

Joesitz said:
Lanie - Are you a member of the 'One skater only' club?

Joe

Nope! I like a bunch of skaters (I could make a really long list!) but I've got my overwhelming faves. With Sasha I'm in good company with other fans. The Kerrs... no one I know likes them, they're hated by all my friends. Sniffle.

And MM, I thought the point spread was bigger than that - but I hadn't looked at the protocols in awhile. I do remember Fumie mentioning that she needs to up her levels and such. Fumie did get the last laugh on Sasha though at Worlds!

slutskayafan21 · Jun 8, 2006

Mathman said:
Sasha

CCoSp4 -- 3.5
LSp4 -- 2.4
FSSp3 -- 2.3
CCoSp4 -- 3.5

Total spins (base value) -- 11.7

Fumie

CCoSp4 -- 3.5
FCSp 3 -- 2.3
FSSp3 -- 2.3
CCoSp3 -- 3.0

Total spins -- 11.1

Sasha

CiSt2 -- 2.3
SpSt4 -- 3.4

Total step sequences -- 5.7

Fumie

SpSt3 -- 3.1
SlSt2 -- 2.3

Total step sequences -- 5.4

So Sasha outpointed Fumie by six tenths of a point on all four spins combined, and by three tenths of a point on footwork and spirals. Does that really warrant a HAHAHAHA?

Where Fumie lost the most ground to Sasha was in the program component scores. The judges thought -- so did I -- that Sasha skated very pretty, except for the three mistakes on jumps.

Actually, looking at the protocols, it is hard to find fault with how the judges scored Sasha's performance. She did skate an extraordinary program, minus the technical errors. On the three jumping elements (the triple Lutz, triple flip and the 3T+3S sequence) she was justly hammered -- she lost a total of 7.0 GOE points on those three elements.

Give her those 7 points back, and she is in a virtual tie with Shizuka (plus, her PCSs would have been even higher).

MM

Sasha had two errors on jumps, not three. Her triple-triple sequence got -GOE because it was poorly executed, small, and ugly landing. It was not two footed or hands down or anything, so it wasnt an error.

MKFSfan · Jun 8, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
Sasha had two errors on jumps, not three. Her triple-triple sequence got -GOE because it was poorly executed, small, and ugly landing. It was not two footed or hands down or anything, so it wasnt an error.

Aside from the fall and almost fall, Sasha also 2-fted a jump in the LP. I'd have to look back, but I think it was her salchow. I recall she landed a loop, flip, toe and salchow cleanly, for 4 clean jumps.

slutskayafan21 · Jun 8, 2006

MKFSfan said:
Aside from the fall and almost fall, Sasha also 2-fted a jump in the LP. I'd have to look back, but I think it was her salchow. I recall she landed a loop, flip, toe and salchow cleanly, for 4 clean jumps.

I will check my tape too but if that is the case she was given an even more collasal gift then I thought she was. On another note can you believe one of the judges gave Sasha an 8.25 for her "skating skills" and Irina only a 6.75, Fumie only a 7.00. Both of those women have clearly superior "skating skills" to Sasha. Actually check out all the component scores judge #10 of 12 gave all three of those women, and relative to the other 11 judges in all categories. Most interesting indeed.

Brian Boitano and Elvis Stojko both strongly disagreed with her silver as well.

slutskayafan21 · Jun 8, 2006

Mathman said:
Sasha

CCoSp4 -- 3.5
LSp4 -- 2.4
FSSp3 -- 2.3
CCoSp4 -- 3.5

Total spins (base value) -- 11.7

Fumie

CCoSp4 -- 3.5
FCSp 3 -- 2.3
FSSp3 -- 2.3
CCoSp3 -- 3.0

Total spins -- 11.1

Sasha

CiSt2 -- 2.3
SpSt4 -- 3.4

Total step sequences -- 5.7

Fumie

SpSt3 -- 3.1
SlSt2 -- 2.3

Total step sequences -- 5.4

So Sasha outpointed Fumie by six tenths of a point on all four spins combined, and by three tenths of a point on footwork and spirals. Does that really warrant a HAHAHAHA?

Where Fumie lost the most ground to Sasha was in the program component scores. The judges thought -- so did I -- that Sasha skated very pretty, except for the three mistakes on jumps.

Actually, looking at the protocols, it is hard to find fault with how the judges scored Sasha's performance. She did skate an extraordinary program, minus the technical errors. On the three jumping elements (the triple Lutz, triple flip and the 3T+3S sequence) she was justly hammered -- she lost a total of 7.0 GOE points on those three elements.

Give her those 7 points back, and she is in a virtual tie with Shizuka (plus, her PCSs would have been even higher).

MM

Shizuka doubled a triple and did not include a 7th triple into her program. If you give Shizuka her triple loop instead of a double and throw a triple instead of a double on on of triple-double combos which she had been doing in practice all week, she also gains atleast another 7 points from where she is at.

Mathman · Jun 8, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
Sasha had two errors on jumps, not three. Her triple-triple sequence got -GOE because it was poorly executed, small, and ugly landing. It was not two footed or hands down or anything, so it wasnt an error.

My mistake. Her sequence was poorly executed, with small amplitude and ugly landings, but it was otherwise perfect. Go Sasha!

Mathman · Jun 8, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
Shizuka doubled a triple and did not include a 7th triple into her program. If you give Shizuka her triple loop instead of a double and throw a triple instead of a double on on of triple-double combos which she had been doing in practice all week, she also gains atleast another 7 points from where she is at.

But she didn't. Coulda woulda shoulda doesn't count.

R.D. · Jun 8, 2006

and besides, what she DID do managed to get her the ultimate prize. Once you have that, what else could you have possibly done better? The goal is simply to be the best that night. However, that said, if Irina was her usual self in the FS (it was so bizarre watching her fall and make mistakes) she would have won the OGM instead. Looks like the risk to go conservative (the thing that comes back to bite you 9 out of 10 times) actually paid off in a rare instance this time...just hope other skaters don't get encouraged...

Mathman · Jun 8, 2006

MKFSfan said:
Aside from the fall and almost fall, Sasha also 2-fted a jump in the LP. I'd have to look back, but I think it was her salchow. I recall she landed a loop, flip, toe and salchow cleanly, for 4 clean jumps.

I think that must have been the Salchow part of the 3T+3S sequence.

She did get 0 (that is, not negative) GOE on her loop, flip in combination, and double Axel, and +.57 GOE on her solo Salchow.

Mathman · Jun 8, 2006

antmanb said:
Where do you get all this stuff from?!

Joe said:
Mathman - What book are you reading to get all this info?

I got this information from Wikipeia on line.

1908 Olymoics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1908_Summer_Olympics

Gilbert Fuchs and his rivalry with Salchow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Fuchs

seanibu said:
I think you are a lady, you are too likable.

Actually I am Yuka Sato -- naw, I'm not THAT likable.

MM

Biggest Judging errors in the past

Jaana

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

antmanb

antmanb

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

Spirit

Spirit

SeaniBu

Lanie

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

MKFSfan

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

Mathman

Mathman

R.D.

Mathman

Mathman

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