Biggest Judging errors in the past

Mathman said:

But she didn't. Coulda woulda shoulda doesn't count.

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You were the one that was pointing out where Sasha would have been score-wise relative to Arakawa without her 2(or 3)jump misses. Coulda woulda shoulda yourself. I was pointing out Arakawa also left points on the table that were easily attainable for her.

Red Dog said:

and besides, what she DID do managed to get her the ultimate prize. Once you have that, what else could you have possibly done better? The goal is simply to be the best that night. However, that said, if Irina was her usual self in the FS (it was so bizarre watching her fall and make mistakes) she would have won the OGM instead. Looks like the risk to go conservative (the thing that comes back to bite you 9 out of 10 times) actually paid off in a rare instance this time...just hope other skaters don't get encouraged...

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Exactly. Of course Sasha or Irina could have skated better and won, but Shizuka also could have done more then she did, considering she was two triples short of what she was doing in practice all week. It doesnt matter though since Shizuka's was the best of the three as it was, and she deserved to win without a doubt. That is all that really matters. The only argument is who you would have placed 2-4 really, and there is certainly argument some could make, and have made(including some experts) that Suguri was given a raw deal in the end.

slutskayafan21 said:

I will check my tape too but if that is the case she was given an even more collasal gift then I thought she was. On another note can you believe one of the judges gave Sasha an 8.25 for her "skating skills" and Irina only a 6.75, Fumie only a 7.00. Both of those women have clearly superior "skating skills" to Sasha. Actually check out all the component scores judge #10 of 12 gave all three of those women, and relative to the other 11 judges in all categories. Most interesting indeed.

Brian Boitano and Elvis Stojko both strongly disagreed with her silver as well.

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I agree. I never got why Sasha got huge skating skill marks. I think Fumie's basics are much stronger. I understand Sasha has the best line and body positions, but how is that skating skills? I'd think skating skills should be reserved for things like, edging, speed, ice coverage, correct take off/landing edges on jumps, etc, practically what the skater is doing from the blade down. I'd put Shiz, Irina, Fumie, Kimmie and maybe even Joannie above Sasha in that category. If there were a category for boots up skating, Sasha would win, hands down, with Shiz in 2nd. JMO, of course!!!


I looked it up: Sasha 2-ftd the salchow in the combination.

MKFSfan said:

I agree. I never got why Sasha got huge skating skill marks. I think Fumie's basics are much stronger. I understand Sasha has the best line and body positions, but how is that skating skills? I'd think skating skills should be reserved for things like, edging, speed, ice coverage, correct take off/landing edges on jumps, etc, practically what the skater is doing from the blade down. I'd put Shiz, Irina, Fumie, Kimmie and maybe even Joannie above Sasha in that category. If there were a category for boots up skating, Sasha would win, hands down, with Shiz in 2nd. JMO, of course!!!


I looked it up: Sasha 2-ftd the salchow in the combination.

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I think because she is labeled such an "artistic skater" and does alot of breathtaking highlight moves as well, the judges just figure it makes sense to give her huge component scores in everything, even something like skating skills which having spectacular flexability moves, and stunning positions and lines, does not neccessarily translate to. She is definitely an ankles-up kind of skater. As well it often causes them to ignore jarring errors that sometimes she does not recover from quickly and takes away from the flow and continuity of the program.

Thanks on the 3-sal though.

Vash01 said:

IMO this thread is turning into who do you like/dislike more, and not so much about judging errors. An error means rules were not followed correctly (and that happens in every sport, except those measured with a stop watch). What I am reading here is just showing personal favorites not winning (or the nonfavorites winning).

Vash

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I agree with Vash.

I know that most seem to have an intense dislike for skaters like Slutskaya and F/P&M but if you can get past the personals feelings then some of the disputed placements are justifiable. F/P&M's best years as eligible competitors were the 99/00 and 00/01 seasons. I do think that A&P could have been placed first in the FD in Vancouver but I don't think F/P&M's gold medal was out of line.

I was never a huge B&K fan but can see past that to admit that while L&A could have finished first in 2003 B&K's win was not unfair.

Michelle Kwan 2004 Worlds Short program. That 5.1 was just ridiculous.
since when is a time deduction -0.9.

2002 Olympics Ice Dance D/V should have won the bronze.

2000 NHK both Butyrskaya and Nikodinov were robbed.

2003 Worlds VV should have gotten fourth

2001/2002 GPF Kwan deserved first and Hughes 2nd.

2001 Nationals Nikodinov deserved the silver. Hughes was a yawn.

1998 Olympics Lipinski should have gotten no more than 5.8 for presentation.

1996 World Pros- Kadavy was robbed

2006 Olympics- Fumie should have been second and Cohen third.

1994 Olympics- If Torvill and Dean received a deduction so should have Grishuk and Platov. While Baiul is a brilliant skater and artist her long program was awful. I wouldn't call it artistically superior to Kerrigans.

Eeyora said:

2001/2002 GPF Kwan deserved first and Hughes 2nd.

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I am not sure if you realize this but for Hughes to finish 2nd overall at that GP final, Slutskaya would have had to have been 5th in the final long program. That means Malinina and Butyrskaya who had more mistakes and landed fewer triples then she did would have had to beat her in the final long. That is a real stretch.

In the 2001-2002 GPF Kwan should have won the final FS, with Sarah 2nd, and Irina 3rd. The GPF results would have been:

3.4 3 2 1 (1) Michelle KWAN USA
4.0 1 1 3 (2) Irina SLUTSKAYA RUS
5.4 4 3 2 (3) Sarah HUGHES USA
7.2 2 4 4 (4) Maria BUTYRSKAYA RUS
11.0 6 6 5 (5) Yoshie ONDA JPN
11.0 5 5 6 (6) Tatiana MALININA UZB

But there IS a way for Sarah to have finished 2nd overall in the GPF, and that would have been for her to win the final FS, Kwan finish 2nd, and Irina 3rd---but in that would have given Irina the championship!

4.0 1 1 3 (1) Irina SLUTSKAYA RUS
4.4 4 3 1 (2) Sarah HUGHES USA
4.4 3 2 2 (3) Michelle KWAN USA
7.2 2 4 4 (4) Maria BUTYRSKAYA RUS
11.0 6 6 5 (5) Yoshie ONDA JPN
11.0 5 5 6 (6) Tatiana MALININA UZB

slutskayafan21 said:

You were the one that was pointing out where Sasha would have been score-wise relative to Arakawa without her 2(or 3)jump misses. Coulda woulda shoulda yourself. I was pointing out Arakawa also left points on the table that were easily attainable for her.

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That wasn't really my intention. The topic under discussion was not what might have happened if what happened hadn't happened, rather it was whether the performance that Sasha actually delivered was fairly marked.

Some posters thought that Sasha's scores were too high, considering her two falls. What I was trying to say was, no, I don't think so.

Sasha was amply penalized, to the tune of 8 points incuding GOE and fall dedcution -- points that she could ill afford to lose if she wanted the gold medal.

MM

As a firm believer in the concept of "you can't win 'em all!" there is only one time I truly feel the gold went to the wrong person based on pisspoor judging... (I'm so gonna get in trouble for messing up the dates, but here it goes...)

94 (???) Worlds... Surya should've won the gold with Yuka in silver. I stood up and appluaded when she refused to accept the Silver. The first time I ever believed the fix was in...

MKFSfan said:

I agree. I never got why Sasha got huge skating skill marks. I think Fumie's basics are much stronger. I understand Sasha has the best line and body positions, but how is that skating skills? I'd think skating skills should be reserved for things like, edging, speed, ice coverage, correct take off/landing edges on jumps, etc, practically what the skater is doing from the blade down. I'd put Shiz, Irina, Fumie, Kimmie and maybe even Joannie above Sasha in that category. If there were a category for boots up skating, Sasha would win, hands down, with Shiz in 2nd. JMO, of course!!!


I looked it up: Sasha 2-ftd the salchow in the combination.

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I disagree. Body position and line are very important skating skills. Quite frankly, if it looks ugly from the blade up, nothing happening below the blade is going to help. Too many skaters are getting away with sloppy positions and that's as unacceptable as poor edges, IMO.

SusanBeth said:

I disagree. Body position and line are very important skating skills. Quite frankly, if it looks ugly from the blade up, nothing happening below the blade is going to help. Too many skaters are getting away with sloppy positions and that's as unacceptable as poor edges, IMO.

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I disagree. Sasha has ability based on her body type & make up. She has improved her edge quality, but is it fair to give pointed toes more value than deep edges?

Another way to look at it ~ Irina's traditional spiral is not the prettiest, but her edges are a thing of beauty and speak to her extremly strong skating skills, IMO.

chuckm said:

In the 2001-2002 GPF Kwan should have won the final FS, with Sarah 2nd, and Irina 3rd. The GPF results would have been:

3.4 3 2 1 (1) Michelle KWAN USA
4.0 1 1 3 (2) Irina SLUTSKAYA RUS
5.4 4 3 2 (3) Sarah HUGHES USA
7.2 2 4 4 (4) Maria BUTYRSKAYA RUS
11.0 6 6 5 (5) Yoshie ONDA JPN
11.0 5 5 6 (6) Tatiana MALININA UZB

But there IS a way for Sarah to have finished 2nd overall in the GPF, and that would have been for her to win the final FS, Kwan finish 2nd, and Irina 3rd---but in that would have given Irina the championship!

4.0 1 1 3 (1) Irina SLUTSKAYA RUS
4.4 4 3 1 (2) Sarah HUGHES USA
4.4 3 2 2 (3) Michelle KWAN USA
7.2 2 4 4 (4) Maria BUTYRSKAYA RUS
11.0 6 6 5 (5) Yoshie ONDA JPN
11.0 5 5 6 (6) Tatiana MALININA UZB

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Yeah that is amazing that a situation could have played out of Irina being 3rd in the final free skate, and still winning overall. I also recall a situation like at the 97 Worlds when Tara had been 1st in the short, Michelle 4th in the short due to stepping out of her triple lutz before her double toe in the combination, and Irina 6th in the short due to falling on her triple lutz to start the combo and not even trying the 2nd jump. Then in the free skate Tara was sitting 2nd in the free skate but 1st overall, while Michelle was sitting 1st in the free skate and 2nd overall. Since Irina had had a dissapointing year, and had injured her back in practice it looked like Tara being the overall winner despite losing the free skate, and Michelle winning the silver despite winning the free skate, was safe. Irina though surprised with one of her gutiest performances, landing 6 clean triples including the triple sal-triple loop in her performance. There were 3 scenarios, one of which was Tara being 3rd only in the free skate and still winning the gold.

If Irina had won the free skate the final results would have been:

3.5 1 3 (1) Tara Lipinski
4.0 6 1 (2) Irina Slutskaya
4.0 4 2 (3) Michelle Kwan

If Irina had placed 2nd in the free, behind Michelle, but over Tara, the final results would have been:

3.0 4 1 (1) Michelle Kwan
3.5 1 3 (2) Tara Lipinski
5.0 6 2 (3) Irina Slutskaya
5.0 2 4 (4) Vanesse Gusmeroli


Since as it turned out Irina placed 3rd in the free skate, behind both Tara and Michelle, the final results ended up:

2.5 1 2 (1) Tara Lipinski
3.0 1 4 (2) MIchelle Kwan
5.0 2 4 (3) Vanessa Gusmeroli
6.0 6 3 (4) Irina Slutskaya


It was extremely close to all 3 scenarios, with Irina having 3 1st place votes, Michelle having 3 first place votes, and Tara having 3 1st place votes. The difference was Michelle had 3 first place votes, and 6 second place votes; Tara had 3 1st place votes, 3 second place votes, and 3 third place votes; while Irina had 3 1st place votes, and 6 3rd place votes, in the long program. I remember Tara looking in panic-mode backstage first after Michelle's skate, then after Irina's skate, but then grinning quickly when she realized the camera was on her.

Skating Skills (& other components) definition:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152087-169303-64119-0-file,00.pdf

I think the 06 olympic ladies were correctly marked. I don't understand the Fumie was robbed. I think she's a joy to watch but she had issues on nearly every one of her elements at the 06 Olympics. Plus watching her was like watching a young Michelle or a karaoke version of Michelle. Mostly because of Lori but a 25 year old skater skating under COP shouldn't be skating like a 15 year old skater under 6.0 10 years ago.

Irina always back pumps and gets tons of speed but lacks in flow but she was worse at the Olympics.

tarotx said:

Irina always back pumps and gets tons of speed but lacks in flow but she was worse at the Olympics.

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True, Irina has a lot of speed in her skating, but there is little if any flow. Speed must be controlled to be with the music and flow with the music. I've never seen that in Irina.

Joe

Kwanford Wife said:

Another way to look at it ~ Irina's traditional spiral is not the prettiest, but her edges are a thing of beauty and speak to her extremly strong skating skills, IMO.

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Slutskaya regularly wobbles from edge to edge at the beginning of her Biellman spiral, and does not attain a deep edge until she's in full, upright position.

Her power is not "effortless," as described in the code, but created through poor posture and pumping.

Arakawa is the poster child for effortless speed and flow, for deep knees, for one-footed skating, and for balance.

tarotx said:

I don't understand the Fumie was robbed. I think she's a joy to watch but she had issues on nearly every one of her elements at the 06 Olympics. Plus watching her was like watching a young Michelle or a karaoke version of Michelle. Mostly because of Lori but a 25 year old skater skating under COP shouldn't be skating like a 15 year old skater under 6.0 10 years ago.

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I don't think the issue was "Robbed" of any placement, IF that is what you mean. Just underscored. Not by much either. And I don't think all of it has to do with Lori Nichol - but it didn't sound like you thought that either. Mainly that AND the fact she so admires Michelle, that influence has been hard to shake. Particularly when your most admired is at such a close age and competing in the same events.

I also fee the pressure of Japan is getting her very culturally influenced. I LOVE this, yet the International Judging aspect has SEEMINGLY made this a problem, as well as "gaijin" audiences have a hard time connecting too. And I still say her leg (the way it absorbs the impact) is the most pleasing to watch when landing.
Beyond MK, Fumie is firm and soft, where I see MK with mostly power and strength. That is just IMO.

Kwanford Wife said:

I disagree. Sasha has ability based on her body type & make up. She has improved her edge quality, but is it fair to give pointed toes more value than deep edges?

Another way to look at it ~ Irina's traditional spiral is not the prettiest, but her edges are a thing of beauty and speak to her extremly strong skating skills, IMO.

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Irina has power based on her body type and make up. Every skater has his/her strengths. Why shouldn't Sasha's count for her? Irina is certainly getting points for edges and power even if she's sloppy in her positions. I have said it before, but a sloppy position done powerfully is just powerfully sloppy. There's no reason Irina couldn't improve her lines, just as Sasha needs to improve her skills.

I am suddenly having a Michelle appreciation moment.

Mathman said:

That wasn't really my intention. The topic under discussion was not what might have happened if what happened hadn't happened, rather it was whether the performance that Sasha actually delivered was fairly marked.

Some posters thought that Sasha's scores were too high, considering her two falls. What I was trying to say was, no, I don't think so.

Sasha was amply penalized, to the tune of 8 points incuding GOE and fall dedcution -- points that she could ill afford to lose if she wanted the gold medal.

MM

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Fair enough, but I think it is wrong to assume any +GOE gain on jumps for Sasha that she lost on. Only 1 of her 3 jumps in the short had +GOE, and only 1 of 4 in the long did. Her triple lutz usually has slight -GOE even when she does it since it is flutzed. Her triple-triple sequence rarely does either. Even Irina was not getting much at all +GOE on her jumps, and she is clearly a better jumper then Sasha, although her jumps that night were sluggish for her standards, even the ones she landed I Mean.

tarotx said:

Skating Skills (& other components) definition:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152087-169303-64119-0-file,00.pdf

I think the 06 olympic ladies were correctly marked. I don't understand the Fumie was robbed. I think she's a joy to watch but she had issues on nearly every one of her elements at the 06 Olympics. Plus watching her was like watching a young Michelle or a karaoke version of Michelle. Mostly because of Lori but a 25 year old skater skating under COP shouldn't be skating like a 15 year old skater under 6.0 10 years ago.

Irina always back pumps and gets tons of speed but lacks in flow but she was worse at the Olympics.

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Sasha Cohen's skating does not show things like:

Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns
Power/energy of accleration
Flow and effortless glide
Mastery of one foot skating

She is the last of the top 5-6 skaters in the World that one would show a video of to demonstrate any of those things.