Biggest Judging errors in the past

One post I disagree with is concerning the placement of Bourne & Kraatz at the 1998 Olympics. Their golden waltz had a few small mistakes, their OD was ridiculously easy, and I thought their FD was really overrated. Since when does doing a lot of side-by-side toe-steps count as difficult? As horrible as Pasha Grishuk could be at times, I kind of agree with her statement that she could learn Riverdance in a day by herself. In general, I think B&K are good skaters but nowhere near as good as their die-hard fans make them out to be. Anissina & Peizerat had a much better OD (they had the most difficult OD of the competition) and a stunning FD. One FD that I didn't care for was Krylova & Ovsiannikov's Carmen. I thought that program should've dropped them off the podium.

As for Grishuk & Platov, they were leagues ahead of everyone else. I loved their speed, attack, and strength of stroke which allowed them to fly over the ice. Furthermore, I loved the way they used their gorgeous running edges to show off their extended free legs which were in excellent unison. Their Memorial Requiem program I thought was amazing and I loved the way they flowed in each and every skill even though they had very little set-up time to do them (their choreography was just seamless).

Some past results that I disagree with:

Klimova & Ponomarenko should've never lost to the Duchesnays at the 1991 Worlds. The Duchesnays were very weak technically and their Missing II should've dropped them to at least 3rd.

Both Klimova & Ponomarenko and Wilson & McCall should've beaten Bestiamanova & Bukin at the 1988 Olympics. With B&B, their emphasis over expression and acting over all other aspects of skating should've placed them below more competent teams.

Denkova & Staviyski should've won the 2003 and 2004 Worlds. They had the best technical abilities and content out of all the couples during that time and since ice-dance is a sport first and foremost, that should've given them the wins.

Lobacheva & Averbukh should've never challenged for the gold at the 2002 Olympics. I thought they should've placed behind Drobiazko & Vanagas.

Drobiazko & Vanagas should've won the 2002 Worlds but instead they placed in 4th behind Chait & Sakhnovksy which I find mind-boggling.

Oksana Baiul should've placed behind Kerrigan, Chen, and Sato at the 1994 Olympics. In terms of content, Baiul was quite weak.

I thought Moiseeva & Minenkov should've won the 1980 Olympics. They finished 3rd behind Linichuk & Karponosov (I could never get into them) and Regoeczy and Szallay.

Kovarikova & Novotny should've won the bronze at the 1992 Olympics. With falls in both the short and long, Brasseur & Eisler got a bit of a gift when the won the bronze.

Thanks for joining us, gk_891. Welcome to the forum!

Mathman

Mathman said:

Thanks for joining us, gk_891. Welcome to the forum!

Mathman

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I'm happy to be here! I'm just glad that have some people to talk to in terms of figure skating. I'm especially into ice-dance and as you can probably guess in my post, my favourite teams are Grishuk & Platov, Klimova & Ponomarenko, Anissina & Peizerat, and Denkova & Staviyski.

gk_891 said:

I'm happy to be here! I'm just glad that have somebody to talk to in terms of figure skating. I'm especially into ice-dance and as you can probably guess in my post, my favourite teams are Grishuk & Platov, Klimova & Ponomarenko, Anissina & Peizerat, and Denkova & Staviyski.

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:agree: Post often, post long!

Here you can watch a slow-mo of Michelle's triple flip; you'll have to go in to about 4:05 to watch it though. Sandra Bezic said it was "shaky", which it was. The toe slipped out, and it was arguably cheated enough to warrant a deduction.

http:www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwQv9bBbols&search= 2002 olympics

I thought of some more judging errors :

Michelle Kwan 1995 worlds: She soo deserved to be at least third. Her short program was paticularly undermarked.

Timothy Goebel 2003 worlds: He was much superior to a very boring Plushenko. The short program wasn't fair, Plushy botched the axel!:scowl:

Jayne Torvill/Christopher Dean: They deserved the gold with their fun, entertaining, and technically perfect routine. Either deduct both teams and have the end result be U/Z, T/D, G/P, or deduct neither and have the end result be: T/D, U/Z, G/P.

Of course, this is all my opinion!

Concerning the 1994 Olympics, I would've had Grishuk & Platov in first, Torvill & Dean in second, and Usova & Zhulin in third. Even though G&P separated on a few occassions for longer than what was allowed, I thought their program just looked very winning, especially in comparison to the strict ballroom classics that T&D performed. Although T&D had a very very difficult program, I was really disappointed in the lack of originality since they took old moves from their previous programs (as well as the ones that Chris choreographed for the Duchesnays). G&P had an exuberance and freshness that was very appealing and I thought the technical difficulty in their FD was very underrated. Sure, it wasn't quite as difficult as Torvill & Dean's FD but I thought they had a better program in general in addition to better speed and attack (as well as line). I often find that people often want to underplay G&P and all of their abilities and accomplishments because Grishuk became an unlikeable person during her Pasha days. As for U&Z, I thought they really dropped the bomb that year concerning their programs. For me, both their Nino Rota FD and their rhumba OD were very disappointing.

cazzer said:

Also, I thought Brian Orser shoud have won 1998 Worlds. Boitano missed both triple axels, yet still finished second in FS ahead of Kurt Browning's entertaining and wow program that included the first quad ever. If Kurt had come 2nd in the FS, Orser would have won gold.

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Orser only has himself to blame for his Silver in at 88 Worlds, not the judges. In order for Orser to have won in Budapest, Boitano would have had to either really self-destruct or maybe not show up for the free skate at all. The top 6 finishers:

Boitano CF 3 SP 1 FS 2 Place 4.2
Orser CF 5 SP 2 FS 1 Place 4.8
Petrenko CF 6 SP 3 FS 5 Place 9.8
Filopowski CF 2 SP 4 Place 9.8
Bowman CF 7 SP 9 FS 4 Place 11.8
Browning CF 12 SP 7 FS 3 Place 13
Fadeev CF 1 (withdrew due to injury)

Orser had missed his combination in the short program, and received technical scores around the 5.2 range. Only his artistic marks kept him in range of a medal after the short.
Boitano only had one triple axle planned in the FS. He had replaced the first one with a quad (he landed it two footed and under-rotated), but did land his Tano triple Lutz, triple salchow, triple flip-triple toe combination, triple loop, triple lutz-double toe combination, and the single (instead of the triple) axle.
Browning landed his quad, and did 7 triples, including a triple toe-triple toe combination and triple salchow-double toe combination. BUT, he was 9th overall going into the FS, skated in the second to final group, so the mark's were not going to be as good as they might have been if he had skated later in the competition.
Still, Boitano was the reigning Olympic Gold Medalist, and Kurt was the "one to watch". If the judges overlooked Orser's mistake in the short to give him second when other skaters gave clean performances, I don't think you can necessarily say that Kurt should have gotten second over Boitano in the FS. Kurt may have landed more jumps, including the two most difficult (quad and triple axle), but Boitano's combinations were more difficult, and even though his quad wasn't perfect, he didn't go down.

gk_891 said:

Kovarikova & Novotny should've won the bronze at the 1992 Olympics. With falls in both the short and long, Brasseur & Eisler got a bit of a gift when the won the bronze.

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I am a Canadian and I can tell you even the Canadian announcers said during the Worlds telecast that everybody in the know thought Kovarikova/Novotny were robbed of the bronze at the 92 Olympics that Brasseur/Eisler won.

If I recall correctly didnt Kovarikova/Novotny skate a clean short and place 4th in the short, where Brasseur/Eisler were 3rd in the short with a fall on her double axel? To still be mathematicaly in the running for the gold, which you are in 3rd was ridiculous with that, if they done a great long and won it would have been a huge outrage. Then in the long didnt Kovarikova/Novotny have 2 mistakes, and Brasseur/Eisler 4 mistakes, with Brasseur/Eisler winning the bronze anyway on a 5-4 split? Shishkova/Naumov also had a clean short and also were judged behind Brasseur/Eisler in 5th, and also had fewer errors in the long then Brasseur/Eisler.

slutskayafan21 said:

I am a Canadian and I can tell you even the Canadian announcers said during the Worlds telecast that everybody in the know thought Kovarikova/Novotny were robbed of the bronze at the 92 Olympics that Brasseur/Eisler won.

If I recall correctly didnt Kovarikova/Novotny skate a clean short and place 4th in the short, where Brasseur/Eisler were 3rd in the short with a fall on her double axel? To still be mathematicaly in the running for the gold, which you are in 3rd was ridiculous with that, if they done a great long and won it would have been a huge outrage. Then in the long didnt Kovarikova/Novotny have 2 mistakes, and Brasseur/Eisler 4 mistakes, with Brasseur/Eisler winning the bronze anyway on a 5-4 split? Shishkova/Naumov also had a clean short and also were judged behind Brasseur/Eisler in 5th, and also had fewer errors in the long then Brasseur/Eisler.

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Yup, both Kovarikova & Novotny and Shishkova & Naumov skated clean shorts but placed behind Brasseur & Eisler. But what annoyed me about the Canadian commentators (I'm also Canadian) is that they acted like B&E deserved the bronze but they suddenly changed their tune at the Worlds. Underhill & Martini in general I found to be outrageous flag-wavers until the 1992 Worlds although they still revert back to bad habits at times. At the 1998 Olympics (although Bezic took Underhill's spot during that time), both Bezic and Martini were howling about how Bourne & Kraatz had the best program (which personally gave me a huge laugh) and how Grishuk & Platov ripped off Torvill & Dean's Bolero (I think the similarities they drew were really really lame - like their commentating) and Bestiamanova & Bukin's FD from 1988. I still remember Bezic was saying how those weaving squats that G&P did were taken directly from B&B's FD from 1988. But recently watching B&B's FD from 1988, I didn't see them at all unless I blinked and missed them. Although I'm Canadian, the commentators from our telecast usually annoy me to no end and I sometimes end up watching American coverage instead. It's one thing to be a flag-waver at times, it's another thing to be sour and bitter at other skaters' success and superiority.

What an interesting thread this is turning out to be.

But does anyone else think there is something a little bit humorous in the title?

"Biggest judging errors in the past."

As opposed th those whoppers of the future that we know are just around the corner, come October.

Mathman said:

As opposed th those whoppers of the future that we know are just around the corner, come October.

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Except for those avid fans of a particular skater or team who will not see those whoppers next season.

Joe

evenstar said:

Here you can watch a slow-mo of Michelle's triple flip; you'll have to go in to about 4:05 to watch it though. Sandra Bezic said it was "shaky", which it was. The toe slipped out, and it was arguably cheated enough to warrant a deduction.

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Well, #1 - many of the judges DID deduct quite a bit if you look at her technical scores. #2 - it was a quarter turn cheat, which is nothing really. That is normal.

Maybe because it was shaky AND a normal 1/4 cheat. ???

slutskayafan21 said:

I had SLC womens like this:

Short program:

1)Slutskaya
2)Kwan
3)Cohen
4)Butyrskaya
5)Suguri
6)Sebeysten
7)Hughes

Long program:

1)Hughes
2)Kwan
3)Slutskaya
4)Suguri
5)Cohen
6)Robinson
7)somebody other then Butyrskaya or Sebeysten although did not see any others

Overall:

Gold-Kwan
Silver-Slutskaya
Bronze-Hughes
4th-Suguri
5th-Cohen

Sorry I did not find Hughes's short program that good at all. Atleast half of her elements were shaky. Her ordinals ranged from 4th to 10th. The 10th was probably a political vote, but only 2 judges had her 4th. She was lucky to be that high in the short and have a chance to win at all.

I could be wrong but I believed at the time Slutskaya only beat Kwan in the long since they wanted to make sure Hughes won the overall gold with her wonderful free skate, after the way Kwan and Slutskaya skated. Well if Hughes did not get a bit lucky to be as high as 4th in the short program, that scenario would never have come into play anyway.

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ITA that Kwan should not have been first after the SP in SLC. However, I don't see how anyone can say that this judging error cost Irina the gold, since there is no reason to believe that if the judging had been proper in the SP, the FS would have played out the same way (i.e., Kwan falling). Under the 6.0 system, MK has an incredibly strong history of kick a** free skates when she has to "come from behind" -- think her final Worlds FS in '97 (even though she was too far behind after the SP to win); '00, '01, and both Nats and Worlds in '04 (her FS at Worlds was better than Sasha's -- which was pretty impressive, considering the streaker).. So, IMO, if the SP had been judged differently (i.e., correctly), then the odds are good that Kwan would legitimately have won the FS.

My candidate for strangest judging decision was at Worlds '04, when some of the judges gave Sasha Cohen first place ordinals over Shizuka, when Sasha wasn't even completely clean, and "Robin Lake" wasn't exactly a choreographic masterpiece. MK's one mistake was less disruptive than Sasha's; and MK had a fire and focus that Sasha just didn't have. IMO, MK got 6.0s and first place ordinals -- not because she skated better than Shizuka, but because she did skate better than Sasha, and these marks were made necessary by putting Sasha over Shizuka.

attyfan said:

ITA that Kwan should not have been first after the SP in SLC. However, I don't see how anyone can say that this judging error cost Irina the gold, since there is no reason to believe that if the judging had been proper in the SP, the FS would have played out the same way (i.e., Kwan falling). Under the 6.0 system, MK has an incredibly strong history of kick a** free skates when she has to "come from behind" -- think her final Worlds FS in '97 (even though she was too far behind after the SP to win); '00, '01, and both Nats and Worlds in '04 (her FS at Worlds was better than Sasha's -- which was pretty impressive, considering the streaker).. So, IMO, if the SP had been judged differently (i.e., correctly), then the odds are good that Kwan would legitimately have won the FS.

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Well you are probably right under how I judged it Kwan would have won the overall gold anyway even with the skates given. I had Irina just over Michelle in the short, and Michelle just over Irina in the long as it was, and Hughes short would have had her far back enough that she only wins bronze even winning the long. Her short was held up to even be 4th, since there was nothing that stood out about it except doing a triple lutz-double loop instead of triple lutz-double toe(which under the new system is worth a mere 0.2 extra), and she had some glaring technical flaws in it, and was super tenative, even without one actual "mistake" unless you count the major flutz. Sarah had only two 4th place votes in the short I believe, the ordinals were all over the place between 4th-9th and she was lucky to sneak out 4th in the short over IMO better performances many of them though by then "lesser names".

I agree with you that if Michelle was not leading after the short she would have had a clean free skate probably, and possably even an inspired one. Irina could not handle the pressure even not leading so probably would not have leading as well, obviously the pressure of skating for Oly gold, in the U.S, the hype around a U.S sweep if she faltered, the buzz around the Russian skating team, was too much for her. In fact if Kwan had skated before her and done a great skate, and Irina were leading her after the short, she would have been fortunate to even match the performance she did, let alone do the much better performance that she is capable of(relative to what she did do).

My candidate for strangest judging decision was at Worlds '04, when some of the judges gave Sasha Cohen first place ordinals over Shizuka, when Sasha wasn't even completely clean, and "Robin Lake" wasn't exactly a choreographic masterpiece. MK's one mistake was less disruptive than Sasha's; and MK had a fire and focus that Sasha just didn't have. IMO, MK got 6.0s and first place ordinals -- not because she skated better than Shizuka, but because she did skate better than Sasha, and these marks were made necessary by putting Sasha over Shizuka.

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I thought Shizuka was the clear winner in the free skate, and Michelle a strong second. Cohen was a distant third in the free skate for me with that performance, too tenative, too many very shaky landings, the big disruptive error on the triple salchow near the end. The judges were more then kind to her, and the judges that even put her first were obviously scoring something other then the skating. Judges that put Kwan over Shizuka in the long, or Cohen over Kwan in the long, I guess I could live with, even though I disagreed, but Cohen over Shizuka, the difference was blatant enough it was really strange.

How about Michelle Kwan at Worlds in 95. They said her skating lacked maturity and sophistication. It was still a notch above Bonaly. But still I find at times the fourth place finish a blessing in disguise. It led to to a beautiful program Salome.

Eeyora said:

How about Michelle Kwan at Worlds in 95. They said her skating lacked maturity and sophistication. It was still a notch above Bonaly. But still I find at times the fourth place finish a blessing in disguise. It led to to a beautiful program Salome.

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I wasn't a big fan of Salome. I personally thought she looked like a little girl playing dress-up who was doing a second-rate imitatation of grace and elegance. On the other hand, Lu Chen's FP to Rachmaninoff was spell-binding.

For me the biggest judging error was for the 2006 Olympic ladies long program scores, specially Fumie Suguri scores.


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gk_891 said:

I wasn't a big fan of Salome. I personally thought she looked like a little girl playing dress-up who was doing a second-rate imitatation of grace and elegance. On the other hand, Lu Chen's FP to Rachmaninoff was spell-binding.

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For a 15 year old, Michelle was amazing, but Chen Lu's mature program should have beaten Salome.

IMO the biggest judging error was at the 2006 Olympics, with Zhang & Zhang winning a silver over the other two Chinese pairs, when they should have been either disqualified or should have received a HUGE deduction for their time off the ice.

Vash