Kimmie Messiner article

MKFSfan · Jun 19, 2006

Joesitz said:
When a thread changes to a totally different subject, I just wonder why the person who began the change didn't just start a new thread? Please explain.
Joe

You really have to ask???? Every thread seems to get hijacked on any given forum! But really, what else can we add about Messiner. I started this thread just to share the article and I think despite multiple going O/T topics, there's been plenty of Kimmie talk.

I'm anxious to find out which skaters will be invited to SA...I'd like to buy tickets since it's close enough. My gut feeling says Michelle and Sasha won't be participating, so I'm thinking Kimmie and Emily will be invited. Sorry that this is a lame question often discussed, but does the host country get to invite 3 of their skaters, or 2?

Mathman · Jun 19, 2006

Does Tara have a boyfriend?

MKFSfan · Jun 19, 2006

Mathman said:
Does Tara have a boyfriend?

WHERE did that come from??? LOL...I must've missed something! If she does, she never seems to take him with her to all these events. She's always photographed with her mom or publicst (or agent, whoever she is).

R.D. · Jun 19, 2006

I seriously doubt it. I mean, one would have seen him by now.

SeaniBu · Jun 19, 2006

Mathman said:
Does Tara have a boyfriend?

I don't think so, but I hear she wishes she had a bluer dress. :laugh:

Anyway, Does anybody think Kimmie using the 3 x 3 twice could clench Nats spot?

R.D. · Jun 19, 2006

what do you mean spot? Title? Well, in that case I think Kimmie is in good shape

SeaniBu · Jun 19, 2006

Red Dog said:
what do you mean spot? Title? Well, in that case I think Kimmie is in good shape

OOPs! Yes, title. Sorry my semantics were wrong. I feel bad because I was just saying how that can be misleading elsewhere.:banging:

Do you think she could have 2 clean 3x3s and that would get it for sure, the win?

Mathman · Jun 19, 2006

seanibu said:
Anyway, Does anybody think Kimmie using the 3 x 3 twice could clench Nats spot?

I hope you mean "clinch," LOL, and who's Nat?

Yes, absolutely. If Kimmie does anything remotely like her Worlds program, IMHO she will not have any competition at Nationals. Even Sasha skating cleanly (which is going to happen -- you read it here first!) will not be able to overtake her.

But the question is, can Kimmie really deliver a 180+ point program, or was her World's performance one of those once-in-a-lifetime, in-the-zone things.

Her point total was 30 points higher than her previous personal best (in part because of PCSs artificially elevated to match her tech).

So who's the real Kimmie? The one who bounces along at the second string level, like in the Olympics and GP prix events? Or will the Super-Kimmie of Calgary show up?

SeaniBu · Jun 19, 2006

Mathman said:
I hope you mean "clinch," LOL, and who's Nat?

Sorry, squeezing Nat. I am so foolish some times, wrong clinch :laugh:

And I also meant Nationals. :laugh:

Mathman said:
Or will the Super-Kimmie of Calgary show up?

This is kinda what my "money" is on. Granted she isn't clenching anyone. :laugh:

R.D. · Jun 19, 2006

Even Sasha skating cleanly (which is going to happen -- you read it here first!)

I'll remember that. :laugh:

and hold you to it, too.

But if I were to make a conjecture she's going to lay low. I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't show up. In that case, Kimmie will have no competition at all...wait, maybe not...

You see, I think Kimmie will suddenly be in a different position. Has she ever entered a (senior) competition as a favorite? Or THE favorite? It's never easy to defend a title or be the chased because you're the reigning world champion. Look at Arakawa after her 2004 win. NINTH at 2005 Worlds. In other words, I'm not expecting much from Kim this upcoming year. I think she'll definitely be on the US podium and have a good shot at defending her world championship but I wouldn't be shocked if she slips up or even has a rough skate. In fact, I'll be EXPECTING it. It even happens to the best.

MKFSfan · Jun 19, 2006

True, especially when you figure in how she did not do well with pressure at Jr. Worlds after a silver in 2004 and a bronze + 3axle at Nationals 2005. You just never know! This may have been her one chance to win Worlds and she nailed it with a fantastic LP, so nothing to be ashamed of. OR she could just be getting started!

chuckm · Jun 19, 2006

Each host country can choose any 3 of its own skaters. The USFS will almost certainly select Kimmie for Skate America (she is the top seed, besides). But I am not sure the USFS will select Emily, as she is assured two GP events anyway. Since Katy Taylor and BeBe Liang are each assured only one invitation, I think the USFS will select them for Skate America so they will have two events.

Also, one of these 4-6 seeds will go to SA: Elena Sokolova, Yukari Nakano or Sarah Meier.

Theatregirl1122 · Jun 19, 2006

chuckm said:
Also, one of these 4-6 seeds will go to SA: Elena Sokolova, Yukari Nakano or Sarah Meier.

Unless Sasha chooses not to compete in the GP, at which point Elena Sokolova becomes seeded 3rd and Mao Asada joins the 4-6. I think.

chuckm · Jun 20, 2006

The rules provide for skaters "retiring" and then being replaced by the next on the list (then it would be Mao). But I'm not sure Sasha declining her assignments constitues retiring, and the rules as written don't address replacing seeds who decline rather than retire.

antmanb · Jun 20, 2006

IcyBallerina said:
Or a triple salchow, or a triple lutz. Her sal has been downgraded and she has one of the worst flutzes I've ever seen. Once you think about it, you begin to wonder where this technical genius we've been hearing about is?

With the triple axel, though, she clearly will be formidable over the next few years. I think that barring injury, the rivalry between these two will be pretty interesting over the next few years.

The trouble is (having not seen Kim i don't know about her) i'm struggling to think of a skater with both a true Lutz and a true flip...Meissner i think has both, Emily Hughes certainly has both...who else? The russians all hav great Lutzes but big 'Lips, Arakawa was the same...all in all it seems most of the top ladies have deficiencies with their Lutzes and Flips so i think Asada is in good company.

The blame for her not including the triple toe or triple sal, IMO rests fairly with the CoP. By limiting the number of jumping passes in a program then it sets skaters up to say - what are the jumps with the highest tarrifs and how can you work them all into a program while covering up your weaknesses? How fortunate that Asada has the higher triples as consistently as she does adn ditching teh two "easier" triples works out best for her. Didn't she have a season of putting the triple toe and sal in her programs but they kept gettig called for being underotated? Normally the lesson learnt by skaters for that would be to sort the jump out so you do it properly but if you have a judging system that limits the number of jumps you can do and you can fill those spots with jumps that not stand les chance of being downgraded, but carry a higher point value, which would you do?

I'm sure if the CoP gave bonus points for landing five of the six different triples and even more for six of the six different triples we'd see Asada trying all of them...and maybe a few more triple axels attempts too.

Ant

antmanb · Jun 20, 2006

Mathman said:
OK, so now we have three contenders in the smack-down stare-off contest. Michelle Kwan, Jack Nicholson, and Barbara Fusar-Poli.

Heeeeeeeeere's Poli!!!

Ant

antmanb · Jun 20, 2006

Red Dog said:
I'll remember that. and hold you to it, too.

But if I were to make a conjecture she's going to lay low. I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't show up. In that case, Kimmie will have no competition at all...wait, maybe not...

You see, I think Kimmie will suddenly be in a different position. Has she ever entered a (senior) competition as a favorite? Or THE favorite? It's never easy to defend a title or be the chased because you're the reigning world champion. Look at Arakawa after her 2004 win. NINTH at 2005 Worlds. In other words, I'm not expecting much from Kim this upcoming year. I think she'll definitely be on the US podium and have a good shot at defending her world championship but I wouldn't be shocked if she slips up or even has a rough skate. In fact, I'll be EXPECTING it. It even happens to the best.

I don't think Arakawa is a good comparison in this case because, firstly she had been on the scene for many many years when she won her world title, it wasn't her first attempt. Secondly, it was very widely publicised that hse wanted to take the medal and run after 2004 worlds but her federation forced her to stay in. She had lost her motivation and the 9th place finish at Worlds was not unexpected given ehr training and motivation issues.

I think Kimmie should be compared more to Kwan or Slutskaya in the last few years - i think it will be fully expected for her to be on the worlds podium again but it'll be case of whether she can defend her gold - both Kwan and Slutskaya have strugled to defned the title and i don't think any les of thme for that.

Ant

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 20, 2006

Now, I'm happy. This is so refeshing to read about some interesting speculation about Kimmie and others in their quests for success. Much better than reading something into stares at the podium.

(What's the plural of podium?)

Joe

chuckm · Jun 20, 2006

Joesitz said:
(What's the plural of podium?)

In Latin, the plural is "PODIA": podium-podia, just like medium-media, datum-data.

But according to my dictionary, "podiums" is also acceptable.

Mathman · Jun 20, 2006

antmanb said:
The blame for [Mao Asada] not including the triple toe or triple sal, IMO rests fairly with the CoP. By limiting the number of jumping passes in a program then it sets skaters up to say - what are the jumps with the highest tarrifs and how can you work them all into a program while covering up your weaknesses? How fortunate that Asada has the higher triples as consistently as she does adn ditching teh two "easier" triples works out best for her. Didn't she have a season of putting the triple toe and sal in her programs but they kept gettig called for being underotated? Normally the lesson learnt by skaters for that would be to sort the jump out so you do it properly but if you have a judging system that limits the number of jumps you can do and you can fill those spots with jumps that not stand les chance of being downgraded, but carry a higher point value, which would you do?

The triple Axel makes all the difference in this strategy. If you can hit that sucker every time, then even without a triple-triple you have a lot of different ways to go. Mao could do 3A-2Lo, 3F-2lo, 3A, 3F, 3Lz, 3Lo, 3Sal for her 7 jumping passes, without working up a sweat, and only taking a slight negative GOE for a flutz and a weak Sal.

The knock on her 3T is pre-rotation, turning it into a toe Axel. This seems to be a serious problem with her basic technique that might not be possible to fix. (As I understand it, a pre-rotation on the Salchow is acceptable because the mechanics of the jump pretty much force you to pre-rotate a little in any case. (?) )

Kimmie Messiner article

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R.D.

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